IAO AGD BillBoard Sighting!

[irbodden]

Bill, EXACTLY. Its good to hear it from an 'insider' who can put it so powerfull.

[squidboy69]

At the risk of escalating this 'flame' war here, the attitude of some of the people here is pretty scary. I'm not so good at this quoting thing, but I saw Throdic say (in the second page of this thread)

"the moral highground doesn't pay the bills".

Now stop and think about that, Bill Mills had told you that the lowest common denominator had cost paintball at least two families (that *WE* know about).. I know I for one refuse to buy WDP equipment because of their shameless attitude, and stopped buying multiple paintball publications due to their advertising practices.

Is it any wonder that our sport is having a hard time getting out of the woods? At least in the woods you have to look for the garbage, nobody throws it at you.

[Thordic]

Well, first off, this arguement is kinda a moot point, since the billboard is UP, and we won't know until after IAO is well over how well this all turned out.

But I think the very fact this debate is going on is proof AGD's ad is going to be successful at AGD at getting people talking. AGD has been in the background of paintball hype for a LONG time, and before they launch any sort of large campaign to push new products, they have to get themselves back in peoples minds. I think this ad does that.

I also see what Bill means about the ad being somewhat ambiguous to people who don't know what the warp feed is. But, even if people don't know what the warp feed is, I think the ad will draw more people to the AGD booth. And then they can find out all the information they want.

But like I said, the proof has yet to be seen, and they may not even be a clear enough effect so that someone is proven right or wrong. But we'll just have to wait and see.

[cledford]

I Disagree with Bill Mills and support AGD...

For a VERY long time now we've been TRASHING AGD about their advertising practices not being competitive from the prospective of the likes of WDP. Now finally AGD is making strides to match other vendors in the industry and now everyone is crying "boo-hoo, it's not family oriented..." I think this is completely wrong. It is a proven, well established fact that SEX sells. How many people here have written Pepsi about the Brittany Spears campaign? I'll wager not one. Regardless of what people say, the outfits Brittany wears, the gyrations that she does in her dance routines are just this shy of a striptease. Why doesn't this offend your delicate sensibilities? Why, if these advertising practices are so abdominal, are they so effectively used by almost every industry leader in virtually all consumer areas?

Bill Mills, I respect what you've contributed to the sport, but I've got to call you out on this matter. Paintball is not a family event, never was, and shouldn't be. There is a very strong initiative by promoters to have paintball accepted as a true "Extreme Sport." This initiative includes associating paintball with sports such as freestyle biking, skateboarding, and inline skating. There is now a push to have paintball venues at other extreme sport events and progressive/modern rock musical performances. If you've ever been to one of these other type of events - sex permeates the whole environment. (and often not just sex, but alcohol and drug abuse as well...) From what people wear, to the statements on their shirts, to what their doing with one another, and on and on. We can't one day of the week link ourselves with counter-culture type activities, pastimes, and music where decidedly un-family like acts, displays of open sexuality, and very explicit lyrics are the norm - then try to establish a "family environment" the other times.

I'll express what may be an unpopular opinion (especially with the younger crowd) but if a person can be harmed by advertising that has an element of sexuality expressed in it, then they are TO YOUNG TO BE PLAYING. I started paintball when I was a Junior in high school, and dropped skateboarding and bike freestyle for it. Even back in '89 those sports had an element of sex associated with them. That doesn't have seem to harm the kids participating, and those sports have now gained a level of acceptance and participation that none of us would have ever expected. But if a "child" could be harmed by such marketing - should they even be playing at that age? Really, has anyone ever addressed what an appropriate age to start playing is? I'll wager that there are plenty of reasons aside from the sex marketing that there should be a mandatory age limit for paintball. The saddest part is that paintball started out as an adult sport, and has year after year accepted younger and younger players into it ranks. The reverse aging of the sport has been PUSHED by the industry for one reason and one reason only, it makes them more money - period.

You guys need to chill a little - when a women can have an "artificial" orgasm on a commercial for shampoo during prime-time network TV without causing a problem, you need to accept that sex advertising has reached main stream. AGD has a product that is unparallel in the paintball industry. Much more important then that - they are the only vendor I know of that does true SCIENTIFIC research regarding our sport -and they share the data for free!!! If having the most technically advanced marker, and the data to debunk costly myths was an effective means to sell guns they'd be the biggest marker producer out there - instead right now their product has been almost completely eliminated from the ranks of professional competition. Obviously, marketing on technical merit alone does not cut the mustard - and look at WDP, a pretty (yet technically substandard marker to the Extreme) marketed with a HEAP of sex seems to be the most popular "E" marker in use today. At the end of the day, if AGD can compete with them on the marketing front (the easier of the 2) they will lead based on their technical superiority. Until then they won't even get a chance to compete because a bunch of people with nothing else to do will keep the markers from mainstream because they put their interests (how they think the markers should be advertised) before that of the company.

One other thing, I'd much rather see sex marketing then the occult, paginsitic, or satanic stuff that covers most of the rest of the industry - and I'm not even religious. How many people shoot Diablo paintballs? Do you think that the soccer mom's of America aren't going to let their little pumpkins participate in the IOA because the events promoter bases ALL of it's advertising on Satanism? I serious doubt it. If the soccer moms can separate the two - maybe you guys should be able to as well.

-Calvin

[MagDog68]

Some people may read what I am about to say and think I have made a complete 180* turn from my previous comments -- but I think its is closer to 90*. AGD has made one flaw in this ad -- it put it up in a public place with no explanation of what it is selling. And worse yet, the ad has a hint of "70s porn" to it.

I personally was not offended, nor did I ogle the model in this ad. I thought it was a great eye catcher and did what it was supposed to do -- grab people's attention long enough to say, "AGD has an awesome product -- inquire within!"

If nothing else, I think AGD will make paintball people wonder what the heck they could do to get the hopper off the top of the gun and that is great for AGD. However, I think that would be the best of all possible worlds and as you know, this is definitely not the best of all possible worlds.

What will probably happen is people in the know will appreciate the humor of the ad and may stop by the AGD booth at the IAO for a demonstration of the Warp Feed. And if Veronika (the model for the ad) were there -- it would be so much better.

BUT....people who have no idea what the heck a Warp Feed is will probably think, "What's the nude girl doing with my son's or daughter's paintball gun?"

The dilemma here is not the ad itself, but more where it is placed. If this ad were placed in APG or on Paintballgear.com, people who have a clue would be checking out the ad and asking questions about the warp feed.

As it is, the ad is on a 20 foot high billboard on a highway leading to an event that most mother's probably wish their children weren't participating in as it is. Huge naked paintball chicks while great in my book, don't usually fly with moms! Its generally not a good thing when moms have to worry about their children suffering bodily harm AND sexual innuendoes.

Now I am not saying we have to put a PG rating on paintball, that is completely unreasonable. I do think that when at all possible we should put our best face forward when speaking directly to the general public. In this case, I don't think AGD has done that. The ad is great, it is just being used in the wrong arena.

~Fred

PS To everyone saying that sex sells -- sex sells when it is directed to the right audience. I don't think the naked chick is going to make more people interested in the warp feed if they are not first interested in Paintball. This is where the marketing flaw is. You can't get someone interested in a warp feed if they have not interested in paintball -- just like you can't get someone interested in an inexpensive alternative to HP Laserjet Toner if they don't own a LaserJet Printer. No one puts huge Printer Billboards up because you won't be advertising to your key audience.

This ad should be placed INSIDE the IAO grounds, then it will be targeting the right audience.

[billmi]

Re: I Disagree with Bill Mills and support AGD...

Originally posted by cledford
It is a proven, well established fact that SEX sells.

You know, as often as I hear people who have little to no professional or educational marketing or media background say that, not one of my professors in college while earning my BA in broadcasting said it. Not my media audiences and effects prof, not my Public Relations prof, not my advertising prof, and none of my scriptwriting profs.

Is California State University so off the mark when hiring professors? Several of my professors did teach how sexuality can grab attention in advertising - however it does not "sell" - and if not used carefully enough it can offend driving away potential customers.

As Tom Kaye had stated in the previous thread (Re: the Mancow full auto video), AGD's new marketing focus is on stirring up controversy. As I understand what he was saying in that thread, the whole goal of these ads is simply to get people arguing, thereby drawing more attention to AGD. It's pretty clear that's the real purpose of the billboard since it doesn't tell you anything about the product it's advertising (or even show it), suggests that you should not use another company's product, and the only URL listed on the billboard is for a website selling porn videos. All are well selected points to offend some people with, and get others to argue in favor of it.

As for working to make paintbal less family friendly, perhaps you should send a letter to Debra Krishke, who produces the IAO. From every conversation I've had with her on the topic, more family involvement has always been her goal for the IAO - I think that's pretty evident with the young guns and female divisions run at the tournament, and the anti-drug policies on the property, and her response to the wet t-shirt contest that happened last year.

Also, a question that just struck me... If Capo is the AGD Spokesmodel, why wasn't she used for the billboard?
[and to clarify why I asked that - I'm not implying that she should be used in ads like that, but asking why someone else was used because I suspect the answers have to do with class and respect and beg further questions about class and respect]

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[Thordic]

Paintball Company Banned From Pennsylvania: Story At Eleven!

When are they going to make the movie? I hear Woody Harrelson is playing Tom, and Courtney Love is playing Marcia.

[MagDog68]

Re: Re: I Disagree with Bill Mills and support AGD...

Originally posted by billmi
Also, a question that just struck me... If Capo is the AGD Spokesmodel, why wasn't she used for the billboard?

Because they couldn't take the chance of Fatman and cphilip trying to tak the billboard home with them.

~Fred

[billmi]

Originally posted by Thordic
Paintball Company Banned From Pennsylvania: Story At Eleven!

That would be the second time someone has mentioned something being banned or censored in this thread, yet no banning or censorship has happened, nor has anyone advocated it.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[Thordic]

Originally posted by billmi


That would be the second time someone has mentioned something being banned or censored in this thread, yet no banning or censorship has happened, nor has anyone advocated it.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

I meant it as a joke, Bill

As for Capo, well, you aren't really asking a question so much as fishing for an answer. I figure someone will give you what you are looking for anyway, so I might as well lay it out.

The point Bill was trying to make is that Capo wouldn't do that type of ad because it is somewhat degrading or whatnot. Therefore, by that arguement, if AGD's own spokesmodel wouldn't do the advertisement, why would they do it at all? At least, thats my approximation of what he was getting at. Close enough, Bill?

On the other hand, while Capo may be AGD's spokesmodel, she isn't a professional model. A professional wrestler may say its ok to grapple with half-naked oiled-up men. I personally, not being a professional wrestler, have an issue with touching oily half naked men. When I wrestle with my brother because hes annoying, he is clothed and non-oiled. Its a matter of amateur vs. professional You could argue my analogy is totally off base, which is fine, because it is, but hopefully someone understands there is a point in there somewhere, even if it is very loose.

But lastly, no one ever said this ad was classy. No one ever said Veronika or whatever her name is was classy. I don't even think there ever any indication the ad was INTENDED to be classy.

So, in my opinion, whether or not the ad was "classy" enough for Capo to be in is a moot point since class was never an issue in the first place. Whether or not it SHOULD have been an issue is more what we are talking about, so you are ahead of the game by a bit, Bill

Also, as for your statement about sex selling and marketing, etc, you make a good point and a not-so-good point. Your good point is sex doesn't sell on its own. You can't sell anything with sex except sex, which is illegal unless you are Miscue (He lives in Vegas, before anyone thinks I called him a man of ill repute ). But, sex is a VERY effective attention-getter. Now, I can't speak on using sex in marketing from personal experience. I've worked in marketing for a few years now, but it for a design firm where the client is usually the US Government, and using sex to get jobs from the government is a no-no ever since the Clinton administration left office.

However, the principles of marketing are still the same. You want to capture your demographics attention, and create a buzz about your product.

Ever see really cool or weird commercials that don't advertise a product at ALL? Remember those weird Coke ads a few years back where all the commercial said was something about a weird website, with no mention of the product at all? I wonder how many visits that website got of people going "What the hell is this advertisement for? Should I know already? I want to find out!" Coke created a BUZZ, and drew peoples curiousity. They spent millions of dollars on TV time, and didn't show thier logo or their product ONCE. You had to go to the webpage to get a clue what was going on.

Just as people will have to go to the AGD booth, and go they shall. That ad will create a LOT of buzz about AGD at IAO and in the weeks following. Look at the stir it has caused here, in a SMALL community of the paintball whole. It will get people saying "AGD". That's the point. It's not about selling sex, or selling warp feeds, or selling ANYTHING directly. It's about creating that buzz, getting people talking.

And read the last few pages of this thread, people are ALREADY talking, and the IAO doesn't start for another two weeks.

[TransMan]

Well im no offended by the bill board but i do agree with shartley and Bill. There are a lot of parents out there that would never let there kid(s) play paintball after driving by that bill board or seeing the wet t-shirt contest. I would have rather seen that ad in a magazine and not on a billboard but would rather not have it at all.

[irbodden]

Re: I Disagree with Bill Mills and support AGD...

Originally posted by cledford
There is a very strong initiative by promoters to have paintball accepted as a true "Extreme Sport." This initiative includes associating paintball with sports such as freestyle biking, skateboarding, and inline skating. There is now a push to have paintball venues at other extreme sport events and progressive/modern rock musical performances. If you've ever been to one of these other type of events - sex permeates the whole environment. (and often not just sex, but alcohol and drug abuse as well...) From what people wear, to the statements on their shirts, to what their doing with one another, and on and on.

You must have been out of it for a LONG time. Skating comps and events aren't like that anymore.

B3, XGames and any demos are 'kid' friendly events. Hell at some Razor (Skates NOT scooters) demos the pros were going out of their way to talk to any little kids they saw, PLENTY of familys showed up.

You have to remember, big sponcers took over these sports and they aren't going to let those types of shennigans go down at any of their venues.

Not trying to flame you though, I read that you got out of it 13 years ago..

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by shartley
It is time the rest stand up and tell them to take a hike.

Difficult topic. C'est la vive.

As to my views: I agree with SHartley and Bill.

Perspective though. This is AGD's first foray into marketing. And, from an amoral point of view, they've done a very good job. Considering the demographic, there a few things that will attract as much attention while doing 70mph on the way to a tourny. Do I agree with it, no. Do I understand it, yes. Given the same situation would I choose that billboard, I really don't know. Probably not (specifically because my mother would fly to my house and slap me ).

Both sides have been presented and I'm sure Tom has read this thread with great concern. I highly doubt that AGD will make this a trend. If it does, then this issue will no doubt be raised again with a bit more urgency.

[cledford]

Ha-Ha Bill, maybe you're dating yourself. Look around at most of the marketing campaigns for any other male oriented product (Try picking up a Maxim to help) - obviously those marketing gurus didn't go to school in CA... Also, be careful about what you assume about people, in my case you guessed correctly, I do not have an educational background in marketing - but there are posters in this thread that do. For what it's worth, the issue came up 3 time in my academic career: Psychology, Business communications, and Speech. In each the consensus was "Sex sells." Now maybe the Professors here on the east-coast aren't as savvy as their esteemed west coast counterparts, but they seemed pretty certain on the matter when I was in school.

Regarding the letter to Debra Krishke, why? Even if her commitment to the "family" is as strong as you seem to suggest - how does that have any bearing on any of the other national events with their all-female paintball wrestling contests, WDPs "Angels" (complete with heaven) or any of the other goings on's like the cheating, cussing, temper tantrums (gun throwing, "bonus balls"), and everyday attendees walking around in various states of undress with a multitude of body piercings and tattoos? The point is that paintball started as an adult sport, and remains that way if not for the periphery content alone. It isn't for the milk-toast, bible-thumping, thin-skinned type. That may be to bad - but is really a commentary on the state of society in general at this point, not paintball. For the record, I was not specifically suggesting that she is moving the sport in that direction - just that it seems (at least at pro level) the rest of the industry is. Also, I again suggest that people look to advertising practices of the main promoter of the event to determine how "family" family might be. Ask most people from down south or the mid-west about what they think of the "Diablo IAO" and those who participate in it, and you might get an eye opener with regard to main-stream (or should we say main-street?) acceptance to paintball.

My point is that like it or not, the sport is using tactics that are used to sell many other products successfully to the public, especially to adolescent and adult males - and you can't argue with proven success. I agree with your assessment on why AGD put up the sign, and think that (as it was stated a long time ago) "There's no such thing as bad publicity." I'd also submit that "families" aren't necessary for paintball to survive. They are only required for the continual "reverse-aging" I mentioned before - that lines the pockets of promoters (on an increasing basis) by bringing younger and younger crowds (that mommy has to drop off in the mini-van) in.

Finally, I haven't seen anyone else who viewed the ad as a "dis" on Odyssey - of course we know and understand what the Warp is any why it would "move" that hopper. Since the Warp has been out for over a year, I'd suggest that most others do as well.

-Calvin

[billmi]

Originally posted by cledford
For what it's worth, the issue came up 3 time in my academic career: Psychology, Business communications, and Speech. In each the consensus was "Sex sells." Now maybe the Professors here on the east-coast aren't as savvy as their esteemed west coast counterparts, but they seemed pretty certain on the matter when I was in school.

More likely, they were talking about the idea, that sexuality can, and often is usefull in advertising. There's "sex sells" in the literal sense - like people buying the soft porn videos sold on the web site advertised on the AGD billboard, which has been true for years.

However, to elaborate on what my professors taught, "beyond the simplistic "sex sells" statement....

It's not the sex that sells. The sex can draw attention to the ad... That however is a double edged sword. The sex can also distract from the ad's message, or offend the target audience away from the ad. Certainly without the ad's message, the sex in and of itself won't make the sale.

Again, a prime example... The Bruizer. The main focus of the NuLine advertising was women with large breasts in revealing clothes. If it's true that "sex sells" the large ads they took out that were based primarily on sexuality should have made the Bruizer a smashing success in terms of sales. You see Bruizers all over at your local fields don't you? And similarly, PMI advertised the Mokal Titan with full page ads with a woman in a ripped up t-shirt, and Titans sold incredibly well as a result, right? Wrong, because the sex didn't sell the product. All the sex could do was draw attention toward the ad. Unless it was backed up by a product that makes the customer happy, and a successful sales pitch in the ad, the sex alone does nothing.

Sex can and often is a component of a successful advertisement, but it's not the sex that makes the sale.

These are also prime examples of campaigns that were national (or even international) and failed to sell a product. Similarly, it is erroneous to look at any other national campaign for any other product, and say "see, they did this, so that proves it works." In order to know how well that ad "worked" you'd need sales numbers, from that, and other ad campaigns for the same product. What the existence of a national ad campaign means is that the decision making person or persons placing the ad were sold on the idea for the ad.

Another example of an internatonal campaign that didn't do well.... Ever seen the Dan Bonebrake Action Figure Ad? It was meant to use the action figure as an attention gaining device (much as many ads use sex to grab attention) but the action figure ended up grabbing the attention away from the "sell." It has generated a lot of responses from people wanting to buy the action figure, has drawn less attention to WARPIG that other ads. Just because it's unique or in a national campaign doesn't mean it works.

Regarding the letter to Debra Krishke, why? Even if her commitment to the "family" is as strong as you seem to suggest - how does that have any bearing on any of the other national events with their all-female paintball wrestling contests, WDPs "Angels" (complete with heaven) or any of the other goings on's like the cheating, cussing, temper tantrums (gun throwing, "bonus balls"), and everyday attendees walking around in various states of undress with a multitude of body piercings and tattoos?

The billboard being discussed is on a road leading to only one paintball event - the IAO, so what would the audience other event promoters have to do at all with the audience the IAO's producer is trying to develop for it?

Ask most people from down south or the mid-west about what they think of the "Diablo IAO" and those who participate in it, and you might get an eye opener with regard to main-stream (or should we say main-street?) acceptance to paintball.

Another interesting point, further reinforcing the idea that the marketing tactic of "being offensive" does drive away some customers. For the most part, Procaps recognized that some people would be put off by the Diablo brand name and imagery. Since then however, they have sold off the name, and now call their paint DraXxus - the Diablo IAO sponsorhip deal was set up prior to their name change.

My point is that like it or not, the sport is using tactics that are used to sell many other products successfully to the public, especially to adolescent and adult males - and you can't argue with proven success. I agree with your assessment on why AGD put up the sign, and think that (as it was stated a long time ago) "There's no such thing as bad publicity."

There definitely is such a thing as bad publicity.

If there were "no such thing as bad publicity" there would be no such things as public relations firms and consultants.

The publicity Jeffrey Dahmer received made the public aware of what he did, and very likely, people knowing what he did was the reason he was stabbed to death in a prison shower. If he had received no publicity, he would likely still be some anonymous joe sitting in a prison cell.

Following the publicity of the core overheating at the Three Mile Island nuclear reactor, no community in the US has allowed a new nuclear reactor for supplying public power to be built.

Bad publicity cost the Ford motor company big when the media got ahold of info about the Ford Pinto.

Bad publicity cost Richard Nixxon his presidency.

There is most definitely such a thing as bad publicity.

I'd also submit that "families" aren't necessary for paintball to survive. They are only required for the continual "reverse-aging" I mentioned before - that lines the pockets of promoters (on an increasing basis) by bringing younger and younger crowds (that mommy has to drop off in the mini-van) in.

Considering what has happened to the numbers of people buying paintball products since the "reverse aging" trend took hold, I would think most companies would really strive to reinforce that. If you're advocating that decreasing the customer base makes things better, then why advertise to increase customers? Isn't "lining the pockets" the whole point of advertising?

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills