did we even need lvl10????

[cphilip]

Ok lets get down to it...

the reason you need it is the whole concept of why balls break has been wrong for a while now. well...forever! Balls break because the one "waiting" to drop into the chamber to be fired (not the one being fired) are being struck and cracked and they are waiting then to explode on the next shot. That all has to do with the accidental strike they get from the bolt passing by at high speed that hits them and cracks them. Then when they feed on in the next shot, depending on the way they present themselves, they may break or not. Its a matter of luck. If you take something like the Lvl 10 and slow the bolt speed down until it gets past the ball waiting to drop in and shoot the ball ready to shoot at full speed then it will not fracture that "waiting" ball and luck is now taken outa the equation and the next ball shoots clean no matter how it falls into the chamber. Simple but Tom is the one to discover this. Before all assumed it was the one being shot that was subjected to Too much pressure or force that was breaking it. Not so! it was the one waiting to be shot that was being damaged! The lvl 10, being the only bolt on the market that does this two speed thing, can pass by the "waiting" ball without fracturing it and then speed up and shoot the ball in the chamber and reset without giving up 'rate of fire". No other method of slowing down Bolt Speed can do that without giving up rate of fire. You can slow the bolt speed down but you give up the ROF!. The lvl 10 can go at slow bolt speed at first and then accelerate to near normal ROF speed as the old mag and return to cocking position as fast. NO other system can do this. You need it as its the only two speed bolt system on the market. Its ingenious really. It works.

[rjvemt1]

does anyone else think that

CpSuPeRkId

might be a pseudonym for capo?

[RRfireblade]

Hi Phil,
First,I'm not sure I agree.Your opinion might account for some breaks but I don't think very many.If so,you would break a pretty high percentage of balls with just mormal shooting.Anyone out there with a mag ever break shooting 1 bps? Or the thousands of mag owners who never break at all?(At least that's what they said BEFORE Level 10)I haven't broke one in the last 6-8 cases or maybe longer.If it was that simple all you would need is a bolt with a smaller diameter than the ball and maybe an O-Ring to seal the breach,(just like in my Piranah)and your done.As far as ROF,anyone ever made a definitive test on it to see it's the same?(I'm not being a wiseguy I honestly don't know.)It seems you would have to lose something.How could you not,if you SLOW the bolt down during half of the foward travel.You would have to speed up beyond the PRE L10 speed to make up the difference wouldn't you? I'm not sure you even reach full speed with such a slow start and less initial force to counter the spring.Plus,you give up at least SOME air efficiancy and definatly number of shots per tank,and gain more o-rings and possibility for jams,bolt stick,leaks or other non-firing failures.

I don't want this to turn into a bash fest for either pro or con,just a friendly discussion of opinion.(and maybe some facts?)

Jay.

[rudy]

I need it I need to shoot fragile paint so I get more breaks on players and less bounces. My mag would sometimes break a ball at the chrono not shooting more then 1 ball every 10 seconds. its not like it was all the time maybe even only as much as any other gun. but the difference is when you break a ball in the mag there is no taking it back in game no amount of squeegee action can get that bolt and spring cleaned off. after level 10 I had the best monter game ever 1 broken ball down the barrel in 2 days. I shot the most brittle hellfire I could I broke balls on bellys and backs from crazy ranges. why cause now I can shoot brittle paint and keep my gun clean and accurate all the time. No more breech breaks put my mag back on top. And I will tell you the gun was about to take second place to a matrix I picked up. lvl 10 saved my mag. and a couple other notes I will never shoot a warp feed. I dont like heavy guns. I also dont like adding another huge peice to my gun and all that weight jsut to put my hopper down. the warp feed isnt a bad idea I just think it is not practical. and like the remote and many other things its time will probably pass. it just never made sense to me to make the warp feed when you could make a whole hopper force feed the balls. AGD should of made a complete force feed hopper and I think still should or make a conversion for HALO b that could do that.

[cphilip]

RR, That is not MY Opinion! that is exactly the findings of Tom research and its new and its true. You are thinking old style and without fact only old suppositions. its not air blast or hard strike that is doing it. It's excessive bolt speed at the wrong time affecting the waiting ball. Clear your mind of all old theories and think outside the box. In fact this is the reason for MOST breaks. the level 10 give you a two speed bolt that avoids exsesive speed at the wrong time and employs it at the right time. Retaining high ROF while not cracking balls waiting to drop in. Low pressure systems give up ROF to do this. LVL 10 does not. But Low pressure systems were assumed to be putting less pressure on the ball being shot and we have shown they actualy put more air blast on the ball. So why do they work then? This explains it. They fracture less "waiting" balls. But they give up ROF. The lvl 10 does not!

[rudy]

rrfire I agree with you on the speed of the gun it probably lost a little but you also have to remember a lighter bolt will move faster and while you lost some on the forrward travel the tenser spring and less resistance going back is probably a little faster. they can still shoot lvl 10 at 20 bps which is fast enough for me now. It would however be nice to see butterfingers try to hit 30 with lvl 10 I think the 30 cps he had was not lvl 10 if my memory serves me correct. I will probably have a few problems with lvl 10 you are right there is more to go wrong but I would much rather risk soemthign like that happening once every couple of months then all the bounces I was getting trying to use "good" paint, or the occasional break. but if you bought your mag to be reliable and never stop and are willing to risk the occasional chop or you dont shoot fast then by all means save your money

[cphilip]

You always give up something. In this case they managed to give up very little. maybe a BPS and maybe a little more air when the thing stops on a ball. But not near as much as the BPS given up on a LPS style marker with a one speed bolt. That is the point of how clever this realy is.

Rudy...you missed the whole point of warp. It was to get the hopper off the top. Halo B is a complement to it not a replacement for that. aWarp feed is not and was never intended to be "A loader". Its a feed assist system. You cannot shoot even a Halo B upside down for a long string. A Loader coupled with Warp can. They are two diffenent things all together.

[RRfireblade]

Yes Rudy,
Like I said everyone who's happy play on.I can see Phil's not up to any friendly discussion so I guess I'll let it go.I guess I'll leave with this.I was not able to find anything in the "All level ten Info" post that refers to testing and concluding the primary cause of all breaks being bolt to waiting ball contact.According to Tom's post,limiting the chance of cracking a waiting ball was an "additional" benifit.I can also recall prior to Level 10 Tom's attempt to test the theory of waiting ball contact in "SOME" mags with poorly honed bolts and the process of rounding the bolt edge and I don't recall anything conclusive.He did round the edge of the SB 2 which makes sense in the case of a full pinch,which by the way he states is the primary benifit of the slow speed low pressure part of the stroke.I guess you'll say something like "because Tom's says so" instead of accually engaging in rational discussion of the points I have made.But I guess my "box" is to old school.(What ever that is supposed to mean.I guess it's easier to insult someone rather than using point by point debate.I thought this was a forum,but some would rather shoot down a bird than take the time to try and figure what makes it fly.)

P.S.

You don't make it easy when you keep editing your post every few minutes.

[Mav D MagMan]

Well I really don't want to sound like a blind follower here (because I aint)... So I'll respond in the manner you're hoping to get:

It isn't because Tom said so! (Wait that surprised even me) ok let's think if Tom said it, it isn't some accidental slip or a lie thought up to gain publicity/recognition/sales/customers, it is because he has AGD's rep riding behind it as well as some hard core information that anybody (given the brains and equipment) could find on their own.

AGD has a highly developed testing process with which they use to make themselves the best informed company around. They can develop, design and produce you things that are well ahead of anybody else's times, and this for instance is one of those things (such as the Mag 'back in the day, today's Warp Feed, and E-mag!). The development that they take on for their produts is astounding and they really do strive to be the best quality products around (not to mention the most functional) becuase as they say : "Quality always shoots straight)."

Mav

[RRfireblade]

Hi Mav,
I'm not even questioning whether Tom has done reserch.I simply asked Phil (or who ever) to show it.It's not in the INFO post and I don't recall reading any other thread regarding waiting ball contact being the cause for MOST breaks. I love my Mag,I promote the company,the products and the service.I have nothing but respect for Tom and his company.I thought we were going to have an interesting discusion about L10 untill Phil came on and basically said Your wrong,outdated and Tom says so.That was before he edited his post like 3 times or something.If you look at my post I was honestly saying I'm not aware of any test results to that point and show me some.I've seen bolt speed graphs and dwell times and presure graphs etc.I don't question AGD's testing.If Tom finds something thats break through he shows us his findings and thats what makes this place great.I'm using what info I had to make a point and any one with contrary info should do the same.I still haven't seen ROF testing w/ L10 or "waiting ball contact" breaks or even air cunsumtion(besides a definite loss of shots per tank due apparently to the higher input pressure required) for that matter other than speculation.

Jay.

EDIT:
If you can't shoot a Halo B upside down for long strings how is a Warp going to help you shoot long strings upside down? (+ or - 8 balls)

[Kaiser Bob]

RR- Tom explained all the findings on the '2nd ball' and balls that have been smacked by the lvl 7 bolt in pretty good detail at the Tech Conference. I couldent do justice to his explanations, but suffice it to say, the non rounded bolts along with the heavier weight of the bolts did indeed create some barrel breaks, regardless of ROF. (Not counting the 1st ball)

EDIT: Well as it is you can get 8 or so balls from a warp completely upside down, so i guess you get another couple with a halo B. I think the point was that you can feed paint at a good 60 degrees for almost the whole hopper with the halo, and therefore have more shooting positions available to you.

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by RRfireblade
Hi Phil,
First,I'm not sure I agree.Your opinion might account for some breaks
Jay.

Thanks Bob,
I appreciate the use of a reference and you backing up my original statement.I only questioned the term "most" and L10 not giving up any ROF.And I wasn't at the tech conference.

Jay.

[Gitaroo Man]

it would help me A LOT on my mag so yes i do need it

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by RRfireblade
I love my Mag,I promote the company,the products and the service.I have nothing but respect for Tom and his company.I thought we were going to have an interesting discusion about L10 until Phil came on and basically said Your wrong,outdated and Tom says so.

I totally agree with RRfireblade that we all like AGD products. None of these discussions should turn into "I'm on Tom's side and you aren't." At the same time, however, I don't think that Philip's posts were intended to be taken that way. I think that he was just stating an opinion that he felt strongly about. At the same time I'd like to see some tests as to the rate of fire. Not that it would make any difference to me. I still think that Level 10 is the way to go even if you give up a little efficiency, a little rate of fire, and have your tank stop shooting sooner (due to the higher operating pressure). Just like anyone else on the board I'm just curious.

[Kaiser Bob]

RR- I understand you werent at the Tech Conference, I probably would have met you if you were . I was just pointing out where Phil is getting his information from as Tom was explaining a lot of the research done on trying to pinpoint why some mags have breakage issues as opposed to other guns that are said to be gentle on paint. Also as was said before, the time loss is made up by the second stage starting with the piston and then the extra stiff spring combined with the lighter bolt make the return stroke clearly faster then in the lvl 7. The Lvl 10 has been seen to operate so far at speeds of 25bps with paint, so the slower cycle time is not significant enough to be relevant.