did we even need lvl10????

[Army]

Well, I got tired of having to fit the paint exactly. Now I can shoot nearly any paintball with little concern about feeding. I can also shoot those last 5-6 balls in the warp stack..upside down!

Wanting, or needing Level 10, is no different from needing or wanting the latest back-block or shiny 3 way for your Cocker. How about the rage for the Angel LCD? Did it perform any different than the previous Angel? No, but it has text messaging, which as everyone knows, is really needed on the field..(enter sarcasm here)..make the grip emulate the Z-grip and call it a new innovation, and WHAM, it's the gotta have upgrade. Does any of that junk actually make those guns work better? Nope.

Contrast that with an anti-chop system that doesn't need batteries, doesn't make mistakes, isn't affected by ball color or weight, will never break a wire, and allows you to boggle your friends by putting your finger in the breech of an Automag and pull the trigger!

[Kaiser Bob]

Although having the mechanical anti chop system in place is awesome as it is, Ill have to admit I was very impressed with the design of the ACE in the extreme. Just the way its built into the breech, to the system of adjustment, to the orings used to keep paint out, it was in a word, sexy! I liked it so much I may even have to pick up one of them. :)

[Miscue]

Dear Mr. Attitude,

Bolt knick = next ball gets knicked by bolt. Can be a problem when: the ball lines up in a way that puts stress on the knick. Helped by: rounding sharp L7 bolt. Problem removed by L10.

How TK figured this out? He was locked in a cave for hours on end... shooting one ball at a time... several thousand times.

Does this really matter? No, not really. Ball break due to bolt knick is rare.

L10 benefit #1: Soft on brittle paint.
L10 benefit #2: Very little recoil.
L10 benefit #3: No Chopping... not that Mags had much of a problem to begin with.

Note that I listed 'Soft on brittle paint' first.

[SSMercury]

Actually, Tom DID do extensive research, in my opinion. It's WAY back on this forum, I'd have to look for threads relating to it. (Having read the 400+ pages of forum history has confused me a little). Basically, Tom posted a thread asking for input about what players wanted to see next, and (at the time) they said less breaks, then there were several threads in January, February, and March that indicated that he was testing what caused chops. He never outright said, 'X causes chops, so here's what I'm planning to do to the Automag design', but you get the feeling that he was doing research. Then it seems to have submerged until *poof* the level 10 was unveiled.

Anyways, I DO remember one thread asking players how many chops they get at what input pressure.

As for why I bought the level 10 bolt, I bought it because the research seems sound behind it, it was only 65 dollars (can't get a case of paint for that it seems *sigh), and the fact that it lightens the marker. No where did Tom Kaye or his reputation enter into it. Airgun Designs reputation did. I had barely been on the forum for 2 weeks when I decided to order it.

Steven

P.S. http://automags.org/forums/showthrea...threadid=11839
http://automags.org/forums/showthrea...threadid=21208 (IMPORTANT one here, deciding the course of the research, MANY, MANY people asking for paint forgiving markers, thread start 01-04-02)
http://automags.org/forums/showthrea...threadid=22159 (first post, Tom says they are working on making mags more paint friendly)
http://automags.org/forums/showthrea...threadid=24670 (Ah, the original one I read, Tom asked directly, what should be the next paintball advancement, people replied "less breaks")
http://automags.org/forums/showthrea...threadid=32839

EDIT- included postscript threads. These are threads I found in forum history regarding Tom's research.

[cphilip]

OK well teach me to post after having helped celebrate and Aniversary! Sorry but I had to edit out some of my piss pour spelling! I will not assume as you did that any of my points were changed. Please refrain from implying to everyone I changed the content. And I look back and see your edits and chose not to do this to you.

Back to discussion:

But still it was asked and I gave you the explanation of the theory and results as learned in class. A little clarification though: Many of these knicked balls will shoot out without braeking if htey are oriented in such away that the barrel supports holding them togehter when they are hit with the air blast. Thats a matter of chance it seems. Some will actualy not just be nicked but crushed and that we call a chop. Some wait to break at some point down the barrel. Rounding the bolt edge was one step in eliminating some of this tendency to nick that ball. the slow down of the bolt speed until its past that ball (another part of lvl 10) completed that safety mechanism.

Percentages? Well its a matter of issue and I suppose. Since you realy do not know how many of them shoot out clean. And you only notice the ones that don't. And we have alwasy until now thought it was something that happened to that ball on that stroke that caused it. But now we have evidence it was something that happend to that ball the stroke before. And this explains a lot of things that have been done in the past that work but we didn't realy know truely why they did. Slow bolt speed, Low pressure pinching ball type set ups, and radiusing the bolt edge. In the past we were concluding that this was for the bolt waiting to be shot. In reality it was helping the ball waiting to drop in. But it worked and so we never questioned why. In the mag we were confused as the air blast was actualy not very high. But the bolt speed always was. Now we know that was it. And lvl 10 corrects that. All this is why I am saying to think outside the box here. That was directed to anyone thinkin on this. That was not aimed at anyone in particular. It was the answer to the question. Take it of leave it.

Now let me say that I was starting from the point in the original conversation that we should have assumed all other things were addressed. Paint to barrel match, feed rates and such eliminated and still breaking. I was not clear about my starting point last night. But assume you have dones so and still getting an occasional break. Then we are onto this damaged ball theory now.

Brittle paints real problem is its more suseptable to this nicking than any others! So this theory still holds as to why Lvl 10 fixes that issue.

Most of us had no chopping because the paint we were using was less suspeptable to this nicking doing enough damage to the ball for it to break. And our feed rates or methods were good. Me too. But the potential for one missfeed ball breaking was always there. And some of them that are damged may not break anyway as I have pointed out. But the benifits of lvl 10 are still there. Ever forget to turn on your revy and out shoot it? And chop a ball then? It can be devastation for that game. Ever shoot out the revy and chop the last ball? Same thing. Thats about the only time I have chopped but darned if they don't happen!

Now... the question was "did we even need lvl 10". I took that to ask as if we didn't even need it to be developed. Thats the way I took it. Well now my answer is...yes we did! If we Mag people were to keep the mag in contention as the best choice for tourney players who now use this brittle paint. Paint most people called crap years ago is now the choice! Well the mag has no other way to adjust its bolt speed. So this gives us that. So we did need it. DO all people with mags need to put it in. Heavens no. I never claimed that. Can all people benifit from having it in? Yes for those few odd times somthing goes wrong. Did we need it? Yes the world of Mags needed lvl 10.

I agree with KB that there is no way I can explain this as well as Tom can. However I tried and in some cases you may chose not to believe it and so be it. Its a revolutionary thought behind this. SO its going to take some time for it to be recognized.

[cphilip]

And in order not to edit

Let me draw you a mental picture of this feed issue and the potential for the ball waiting to come into the breach to be struck by the bolt and chance being damaged:

Imagine, if you will, a perfect stack of balls. One in the breach and the rest neatly stacked on top out of the breach. The perfect world huh? Well it doesn't happen that way.

Now imagine the ball that entered the breech moving slightly forward and bumping up against the ball detante. And allowing the next bal to slightly enter the breach and move slightly behind the ball in the breach. Remember this ball moved a little forward to contact the detante. So the waiting ball must move behind it a little to fill that void. What does this do? It presents a small amount of that "waiting' ball sticking into the breech back towords the top of the bolt. SO the bolt must pass by it and nick it to get it out of the way. remeber the radius of the edge of the bolt also helped here.

Now this nicking...It doesn't always damage it. Depends on how much and how brittle it is. And even so that ball doesn't always orient itself in such a way that it will be broken by the air burst when it is shot out. And even still sometimes it is nicked so hard it breaks right then! Thats a chop. Or even still sometimes it cracks enough to leak and hangs up trying to fall into the breach and so the next shot chops the heck outa it.

Now a lot of you are thinking "I knew that". Ok so fine. Good! I just never bothered to visualize that. SO I hope this helps to understand how lvl 10 works for those that never visualized this before. that was the point of my comment thinking outside the box! You have to.

If you could make a feed tube and body so tightly that this unaligned stack didn't occur and a waiting ball was not in the breech you would not need to do anything. But imagine having to size bodies to paint that closely! You would have a fortune in various size bodies and feed tubes and be changing them all day. Totaly impracticle. SO bodies and feed tubes are generous to allow free feed of balls of any kind. So if you are gonna address this problem you had to do it on the other end. The bolt striking the paint itself. Thus Lvl 10!

The theory with lvl 10 is to slow that bolt down so when it does nick/brush that ball its slow enough to not damage it. And to make the edge smoother to not aid this nick. And to do that you had to be able to adjust speed throught the part of the stroke that this may occur and how hard it struck (spring tention vs mass of bolt trown forwar). This had to be very close to neutral to work. hense the several springs and velocity adjustments that had to be done. Hopefully and in most cases this does it. And then it has to speed up that bolt for the remaning travel forward and back to retain high ROF. And it does do that. By careful balance of the springs against the weight of that bolt traveling forward and the exact placement of the vent hole in the bolt.

The point at which the bolt begins its faster forward travel is dependent upon where exactly that little hole is in the new piston on the bolt and how many shims you got in there. That had to be exact. And its like only 20mm hole. That point had to be at half travel so it was beyond this "waiting" ball. The carriers seal that piston until it passed beyond the little hole where the full air pressure is released and the bolt then goes full speed out and back.

If that bolt strikes a solid object it will stop and vent out the side rather than push the bolt on forward. But it resets! Not many can say that. Ussualy something else must be done to reset a bolt that has stopped on a ball.

100%? NO not realy. No marker can claim that. There still is an occasional ball that is so damaged and so fragile even the lower bolt speed achieved here will still be too much. But far few of these than the ones we were encountering. Those devils are thankfully somewhat rare but thus the reason no system will ever stop all chop/breaks. But this will eliminate a lot of them. Most of them as a matter of fact!

Ramblings of a new Certified Tech...

[RRfireblade]

Well first,

1- That was a well defined description of the function and purpose behind LVL10.Well done Phil.

2- I'm not sure how I got to be the focus of attack on this whole thread,I simply started by saying "I" don't think I need LVL10.Anyone else who benifits from it I'm glad your happy and enjoy.

3-I fully understand how LVL 10 works and I never questioned it's ability to stop chops no matter how they were caused.

4-My only question to you Phil was your original statement that Nicked balls are the only reason for breaks when I see that the majority of Mags don't regularly break paint maybe thats not 100% acurate.To that point not you or anyone else is sure how often nicks account for broken paint,as stated EVENTUALLY by you in your latests posts and Miscue who thinks it is RARE as stated in his,backing up my original point.(Thanks)

5-As far as edits,You and I both know that your first response directed at me (RR) only included the first 2 sentences and you continued to edit that post 2 or 3 more times to add content and intent NOT spelling errors.If you wish to mislead the readers to believe something else, it's on your own conscience.My single edit was clearly stated in my post as EDIT.I did not add sentences and statements as you did through out the paragraph.

6-In closing,I love my Mag and am building another as we speak.I'm quite sure a Mag will be a source of enjoyment for the duration of my paintball "life".I thank Tom and AGD for putting all the effort they do into thier products so we can reap the benifits that we do.I NEVER stated that LVL10 should not have been developed,on the contrary,I believe constant development is a must as if we are not moving foward,we are standing still.With out that passion,we would still be stairing at the stars instead of trying to reach them.If my new Mag chops perhaps I'll reconsider LVL10 for me but untill then I'll settle for my LVL7,diehard and dependible Mag.

Sad and Tired,
Jay.

[cphilip]

I never said only! I did say it is "most". After those primary things are delt with. And no RR you are not the target of anything at all! I see your point. I just was targeting the whole question and we got caught up in that. It was a platform to explain is all. I thought the author was questioning the need to even develop it at all. No intent to single you out at all. Sorry if it seemed that way. We are cool brother!

And no I did not edit any content worth a hoot you are mistaken. I was told in chat I had misselled a few key words and so i edited them. I often post up and edit them after I think they need a few extra words like this one. And I do not change the content. If need be I admit my mistakes.

[aaron_mag]

Like I said originally. I didn't think Phillip was going on an attack in the first place. He was just getting excited about his subject matter which is what we are all here for... At the same time it is one thing to be reading a response post when you are not involved in the discussion (viewing it impassively) and another when the post is a reply to you. So of course I can understand RR's point as well. It was all just a misunderstanding. I just joined the board but I hope we can debate, call each other morons, laugh at each others puny theories, but in the end understand we are just kidding around and that it is intended to be informative and humorous at the same time.

[cphilip]

Well, as I have tried to point out and not as directly as I will now, I never responded to any particular person in this thread until they adressed me directly.

And of course all I wanted to get started here was a whole nother thought wave on the way balls are being broken. And if we wish to declair that only will we begin thinking this way when we see all the facts... then let me make that same chalenge to you. The same thing can be argued on the traditional thoughts on why balls were breaking. You got any facts to back up why you think this is wrong? Nope!Funny thing is these theories that prevail and are so accepted (Air blast and High pressure) were based on no facts and in fact defy logic. We know the mag has a low on the ball pressure. And we know the Cocker does not. But we think the cocker is genteler on paint becasue it operates at a lower pressure. What does that have to do with it realy? Nothing its the bolt speed. And what did they give up to get that? ROF! But we accepted these and some of us continue to defend them. And I am repeating the logic behind why lvl 10 works and it does. I want to point out that just standing there and saying prove it works both ways.

RR, no where did I go on an attack of you personaly. In fact go back and see. You were the first one to direct to me a specific post. And in this one you indicated you wanted a friendly discussion. And I continued that. But then who was it that was the first to accuse someone of tampering with their arguments! You. I'll leave it at that.

I realise it's hard to believe that many nicks were occuring. They may not be in some markers and with some paint. And who knows how many are. We are talking about the breaks here. All of them are surely getting bumped. Percentages? heck if its over 50% of the ones that are actualy breaking were caused by this its "major cause" and most. Example: If only five balls outa 2000 were actualy nicked enough to potentialy break and yet as luck would have it they all but one shoot out clean that would still be "most" of the breaks. See where I am going with this? And that example may actualy be close to real world. Taking that term Most out of the context of breaks and trying to place it into balls is were you are going wrong understanding this theory. Look back and see if I ever said most ball are being damaged when they are nicked. Nope! This new theory is major player in how we adress the remaining ball break issues.

Facts will be presented. I do not have them all. Tom will surely be showing them and soem he already has. Including how he retained ROF and speeds up the bolt. Without apreciable loss of ROF. We are talking a few milliseconds here just a few. That is pretty doggone close to nothing!

[cphilip]

Oh and yes the bolt does go faster at a point in the stroke! We carefully balance the tension of the spring to counter it's mass which is lighter and then turn up the velocity to that magic point that it is so delicately balanced it speeds up dramaticaly in the final stroke of the process. Tom likens that to uncorking the bottle. And this balance is all the things we do in the set up. If you wanna see how fast it still is look at the demo of the Halo B shooting FA at 20 bps...thats a lvl 10 doing that! Two speeds does not mean that any one of them is the same. both of them are now different.

[Miguel]

okay, to me, lvl 10 is really cool. i like the fact, that you will never break a ball, no matter how jacked up it is... well maybe its to a certain extent, but you know what i mean... its like every other upgrade, its cool, and you know its gonna work, cuz you can stick yer finger in it and know that you aint gonna loose it. now, the short stroking thing, i touched a mag for the first time in my life and i didnt short stroke it once. but if you still short stroke it, and you own a mag, all i gotta say is, learn your trigger, dont just jump into upgrades yet, learn your trigger before anything..maybe buy a new barrel or something small, not performance wise, just yet.. when i bought my cocker, i asked a bunch of questions ahead of time on the trigger, then when i got it, i probably short stroked it once. to me, i think lvl 10 is really changing the stakes, i know most of ya'll flame to a cocker owner " dont you wish you had one ".. lol.. but to me, whatever, lvl 10, or no lvl 10.. im kinda glad they dont make one for cockers cuz then everyone will buy cockers and thats all there will ever be then.. then i'd buy a mag.. lol.. :). well, i kinda hope something helpful comes out of here.. mainly its directed to the, middle of the post... so thanks.

Mike

[Emagster]

i believe some ppl DID have problems with mags chopping whether they got their gun used and the previous owner had messed with something or they just couldn't get the trigger down, and AGD wanted to fix the problem and they did. But I'm with you. I got out over the weekend and played paintball with my emagnum and set it up on full auto just to show some ppl that it would do full auto and I did 16 bps with no problem. My gas did run out during that and it did break one ball when the gas hit about 500 psi, but above that when it was shooting correctly, it did wonderfull, and no ball breaks. I'm yet to do full auto on 20bps because I wanna slowly bring my gun up to that