Some interesting Reffing Observations...

[cphilip]

While Fatman and our kids and I were reffing a 3 man this past Saturday a couple of interesting things came out of the NPPL rules and the common interpretations I normaly thought were applied that I thought I would share in case you ever found yourself in this situation.

First situation:

The Format was center flag. The Flag was draped over a rope in the middle of this complex bunker. A player advanced to the center bunker and the player reached and grabbed the end of the Flag and proceeded to start his downward hand motion. Just as he did this he was struck on the forearm. I saw the shell explode. The Flag was still draped over the rope but was being pulled downward. My immediate call on the field was no pull due to the fact that I interpreted that the did not have complete posession of the flag due to the way it was hung. Had it been clipped on or something it would have come free. I made the wrong call according to NPPL. A review on protest showed that the moment of "Pull" is when he "grabbed" the flag. No mention of how it is hung or attached. So this call was overturned as it should be. I had never seen it actually interpreted when the flag was hung in that fashion and I can bet many of you would have thought the same way. But there is no change in the rules just because the flag is hung in a different fashion. It makes sense. However I do feel "physically grabs" needs to be clearly defined. I do not think that is sufficent for all situations.

Here is the rule itself:

3.05. A first flag pull occurs when a player not eliminated physically grabs the center flag, in a five player game, or his opponents flag, in a ten-player game, before a player from the other team manages to do the same. Only one team in a game may earn first flag pull points.



However that brings up some interesting scenario's as to what might could occur.

First Scenario:

Say, for instance, the player reaches and "grabs" it but then proceeds to not pull it clean and take possession of it. If you follow NPPL rules he had the pull. And as such he is now in possesion of it and its part of his equipment. Even though he is not holding it. So under NPPL rules anyone can shoot that flag and take that player out! Wouldn't that be cool?

Second scenario:

Same kind of thing as the part of possesion of equipment. A player in one bunker throws a pod of paint to another. In mid flight a ball hits the pod. One of those players is out? Is that still equipment? If so then which one? The one who threw it? Or the one it's closest too? In this case does the 5 foot rule exception for pods apply when throwing empty pods the same as throwing full pods? Are they not equipment anymore? If that one is so then if its not within 5 feet of either when its hit is anyone out? Or is it the player that it lands nearest too? I would have to rule that they would not count as a hit as they are specificaly exempt as equipment without reference to wether they are used or not or within 5 feet or not. Seems like that is what its meaning. But under this rule throwing your marker would apply. But that is covered under unsportsmans like actions as well.

here is the equipment exception rule:

10.25. Players that separate from any piece of equipment or clothing that they brought onto the game field by more than 5 feet, except squeegees, rags or pods used in holding paintballs will be immediately eliminated.




Third Scenario:

Three players after a sweep of the other side chose to hang the flag together. After inspection one of the three is foudn to have paint and eliminated. Did they hang the flag? Yes indeed they should have inspected each other before hanging but they didn't. Not addresses in the rules? This actualy happend to us yesterday. We did allow the flag hang.


Also here is the paintcheck proceedure for end of game. Did you know you could not declare the flag carrier neutral for paintcheck?

And did you know that the Flag Hanger is supposed to be called neutral and inspected BEFORE ending the game?



here is some realy odd flag pull and hang stuff no one uses but its in the NPPL rules!

11.04. A player eliminated while in possession of a flag will remain on the field of play, holding the flag at arms length and at eye level, until that flag is recovered by another player, from ether team. Flags must be surrendered by the eliminated flag holder to any player touching it.

11.05. Flags recaptured must be brought back to its flag station by the most direct route and in the most expeditious manner that does not involve the carrier in a confrontation with opposing players. It must be hung in substantially the same place as prior to the start of the game.

11.1 FLAG HANGS

11.12. If the flag carrier breaking the plane of a flag station as specified in Section 11.11 hereof is found to have a hit on him, the flag judge will radio his counterpart to rehang the flag. The replacement flag will be immediately hung in the center flag station in a five man game and the appropriate flag station in a ten man game.




Some stuff to think about. Its not as easy as you may think to ref an event. You need to be up on these things. Weird stuff happens!!!!

[shartley]

Second scenario:

Same kind of thing as the part of possesion of equipment. A player in one bunker throws a pod of paint to another. In mid flight a ball hits the pod. One of those players is out? Is that still equipment? If so then which one? The one who threw it? Or the one it's closest too? In this case does the 5 foot rule exception for pods apply when throwing empty pods the same as throwing full pods? Are they not equipment anymore? If that one is so then if its not within 5 feet of either when its hit is anyone out? Or is it the player that it lands nearest too? I would have to rule that they would not count as a hit as they are specificaly exempt as equipment without reference to wether they are used or not or within 5 feet or not. Seems like that is what its meaning. But under this rule throwing your marker would apply. But that is covered under unsportsmans like actions as well.

here is the equipment exception rule:

10.25. Players that separate from any piece of equipment or clothing that they brought onto the game field by more than 5 feet, except squeegees, rags or pods used in holding paintballs will be immediately eliminated.

, rags or pods used in holding paintballs

[cphilip]

I would have leaned that way too Sam but it apears the pod is specificaly exempt as "discarded" equipment empty or not. For instance it's common practice to leave a pod in a bunker for a following player. You cannot shoot a player that is over five feet away out by shooting that pod in that case. And anyone may use it. I do not agree it should be exempt in every situation but it is. Under NPPL anyway...and I feel that is another area that there should be some redefining of the rules.

Of course you change this BEFORE the captains meeting and vary any of them as you wish. But if you do not do it then and you annouce your following NPPL rules and not provide this as an exception to them then you are kind of stuck with them for that time being. And you need to make a call on the field accordingly.

[hitech]

Originally posted by cphilip
I do not agree it should be exempt in every situation but it is.

I agree with you. A player should have to keep ALL equipment they cam eon the field with. If it's hit, they are out, period. Having equipment hit that was not "attached" happened to a teammate of mine in a tournament. His hopper fell off. When an opposing played realized it, he shot it and my teammate was out. As it should be. Not that I thought so at the time

[shartley]

Agreed.

[gatorchris]

Pods, full or empty, can be passed or left for team mates. The question of ownership is only while the player is touching it. This is the easiest way to explain ownership in relation to the rules. Edit: Heres why its interpreted this way, key words are in bold.

wearing or carrying and such paintball breaks upon the object struck

Player A is running to a bunker and his hopper falls off as he dives in. It is in the open and gets hit. Player A is now stuck in a five foot halo around that hopper. He cant pick it up because when he touches it he is eliminated for having equipment with an obvious hit. He also can not advance because he cant move 5 feet away from his equipment. The key there is he is not in posession of his equipment while it is on the ground, but he is also bound to it by the rules of ownership (makes sense, but doesnt). Same applies to pods, they can be passed but ownership doesnt matter until someone is physically touching it. If Player A slides a pod across the field to Player B in another bunker and it gets hit along the way it is now marked. If Player B touches it hes gone, if he leaves it alone hes fine. Ownership doesnt matter until someone touches it, and that is the way the rules are applied by every series I have played and reffed.

The flag is somewhat unique, its not considered equipment until it is legally grabbed. There is some judgement that has to be applied in a lot of these situations. Correct, he legally has posession as soon as he grabs the flag (has to get a grip), but depending on where and how its hung it may not be a clean grab. Clips snag, it is wrapped incorrectly, those have to be given some slack. The ref on the call should give the player the grab and get the flag off the stand and give it to the player in the bunker. Once the flag is owned it plays in the above scenario. If it gets hit and the player is touching it hes gone. If the player drops it and it gets hit he cant leave the five foot halo around it, but cant pick it up either.

Correct on the flag hang rules, the ref that observes the hang should call "time" to tell the timer to stop the clock. That time is critical in case the game has to be restarted for a player hanging the flag with a hit. Neutral is a given because play stops the second he hangs it for the paint check.

One of the rules I have trouble with is the last player of a team being eliminated on a penalty automatically awards the hang to the opposing team. Here's another one rarely called due to weak refs, but is a violation. Player goes to jump a bunker and puts his hand on it balance, whats the call?

[cphilip]

I agree with you in all but the pod thing as NPPL rules are now written. The way you describe is the way it is commonly played but it is clearly not the actual rules. They are specifically exempt as equipment. And the rules say nothing about wether they are full or not. SAme with towels and sqweegies. Exempt.

...except squeegees, rags or pods...

I think it should be specific too and I know many of us play that way. And I agree that your thoughts are in alinement with what most are doing. But its not in the NPPL rules so if you wish to do that then you have to annouce that during captains meeting that you are varying on that rule. And any other. then its fine. But many forget to point out the variances they are using for lack of knowledge that they are indeed varrying the rules. Thats the point of this entire thread. Know the rules as they are so you can make sure everyone knows your varying them or you will be required to stick to them in a dispute.

[cphilip]

I spent about two hours today rewriting a set of rules called "2002 Common Variant Rules for local Tournaments" derived from Official NPPL Rules. This is for my use at local tournaments. In Word format so if anyone wants a set to vary some more for themselves give me a day or two and I can email it to you. I still have to finish the last few sections and then number it and make a table of content. that will slow me down some. I have the worst of it done though i think. Its amasing how much of it is taken out or rewritten for the style of play we are realy do.

[DaosBeoulve]

I'd love of copy of that cphilip.

[cphilip]

You got it!!! Soon as I have it done I will let you know. You can then change it to suit your needs.

[athomas]

Originally posted by gatorchris

Player A is running to a bunker and his hopper falls off as he dives in. It is in the open and gets hit. Player A is now stuck in a five foot halo around that hopper. He cant pick it up because when he touches it he is eliminated for having equipment with an obvious hit. He also can not advance because he cant move 5 feet away from his equipment. The key there is he is not in posession of his equipment while it is on the ground, but he is also bound to it by the rules of ownership (makes sense, but doesnt

The hopper hit would count as an elimination in this case. The hopper is a piece of the players equipment, is still within 5' of the player and is therefore still considered to be in his possession. It would be the same as layin your gun down and it gets hit. you would be elimninated.

[cphilip]

Yep! Because hoppers are not specificaly listed as an exceptions it will always remain equipment so subject to the marking rules and also will be subject to this rule as well:

10.25. Players that separate from any piece of equipment or clothing that they brought onto the game field by more than 5 feet, except squeegees, rags or pods used in holding paintballs will be immediately eliminated

So using that scenario then if its within five feet it can be struck and it will eliminated the player or if its beyond five feet he/she is eliminated anyway.

Anything except squeegees, rags or pods.

[Shirow]

But can you throw a squeegee and a pod at another player in an effort to give them concussion, and then bunker them? That's the real meat of the matter.

[Mantis]

I've been wondering about some of these rules nuances... hopefully I can worry about them if my tourney team ever gets off the ground.
I was also wondering about what Shirow mentioned, what if you bean an opposing player with an empty pod as a distraction tool? I imagine that might be covered under unsportsmanlike conduct however.
Also, what if I have some sort of rag/pod device that I throw out in front of me as I run across a lane, so that it might catch a few rounds for me?

[Shirow]

Yeah, that would be pretty funny, lobbing empty pods at people. Well, they wouldn't find it very amusing I wouldn't think, but it would be interesting for any spectators. Maybe you could fill them with baking soda and vinegar.