Some interesting Reffing Observations...

[cphilip]

LOL... I assume that is adressed here under 1 for 1 penaties:

(2) fighting or other hostile physical contact.

[yeahthatsme]

hey phil(mind if i call ya phil?) can i get a copy of those rules?

[cphilip]

Uncle Phil to you unless your older than me! :)

Sure! I am still working on me but they will be availble in a day or so.

[gatorchris]

I respectfully disagree with all of you. I have been both a player and a ref in a situation like this with a hopper falling off and getting shot. It is why I posted an excerpt from 10.21. 10.21 is eliminations for marking, 10.25 is eliminations for seperating from equipment, they cant be used to rule on each other. Letter of the law reading of 10.21 says holding or carrying, it is very specific. It is what enables a player holding a pod or squeegie that gets shot to get eliminated, even though they arent considered equipment. It also works inversely and allows you to have equipment within five feet get marked as long as you arent actually in posession (defined as holding or carrying) of it, i.e. the hopper, or your pack if it fell off.

It is open for interpretation, but the ultimates I have dealt with have all said the same thing. Just for reference I have reffed in two state series in Texas, and play in another where we are the top team in our division. I feel I have a firm understanding of these rules after that and being made a field ultimate 2 times this season alone. It honestly may be intrepreted differently in different parts of the country, but thats the bad thing about rules, they arent ever specific enough for every situation. It is a great way to anchor a player down so he cant move by marking a hopper when it falls off. Hes totally humped at that point, he cant leave it, but he cant touch it either, so hes stuck hand feeding out of one bunker.

[shartley]

[gatorchris]

The ref's always win right? As long as a tournament and series the reffing is interpreted the same across the board its OK. Its when field 1 is calling people leaning over the tape, and field 2 is calling people touching the tape only that you run into grief. Again, every time Ive seen this happen the rules have been applied the same, so I guess its ok. Consistency is important.

[hitech]

Just a clarification, as I am the one who posted the hopper flying off example. This happened BEFORE the NPPL existed. It was in one of Jim Lively 's tournaments. I'm not trying to say that it isn't a good example to use to interpret the rules with. Just that in my case it did NOT happen in an NPPL tournament.

[shartley]

Originally posted by gatorchris
The ref's always win right? As long as a tournament and series the reffing is interpreted the same across the board its OK. Its when field 1 is calling people leaning over the tape, and field 2 is calling people touching the tape only that you run into grief. Again, every time Ive seen this happen the rules have been applied the same, so I guess its ok. Consistency is important.

Oh, I AGREE! Well said!

But time after time I see things NOT being consistent. Special allowances are made for one player or team and the other is held to stricter enforcement. It is not even a matter of being on a different field within a complex of fields, this happens on the same field at the same time.

I agree that consistency is key. What should someone do if they see this inconsistency happening? Fire the Refs? Complain to the field owner? What?

[hitech]

Originally posted by gatorchris
It is a great way to anchor a player down so he cant move by marking a hopper when it falls off.

Just curious, what would happen if in the process of being marked the hopper moved more than five feet away?

[shartley]

Originally posted by hitech


Just curious, what would happen if in the process of being marked the hopper moved more than five feet away?

They would call in the ambulance.

[hitech]

Originally posted by shartley

Special allowances are made for one player...What should someone do if they see this inconsistency happening? Fire the Refs? Complain to the field owner? What?

Yes, that "bothered" me also. Dave "Youngblood" was allowed to break a rule so he could maintain his apperance. There wasn't anything I could do, and I was a reffing the tournament!

[gatorchris]

Go to the ultimate for the tourney, then to the promoter. If the fix is in and they dont do anything you are either wrong or they arent legit. If you still feel that strongly that its rigged all you can really do is make people aware. Word of mouth is powerful in local ball, you get enough of your Am and Nov teams saying that promoter x isnt on the level, they arent going to get the draw they want and in theory will shape up.

[gatorchris]

Just curious, what would happen if in the process of being marked the hopper moved more than five feet away?

I would probably chrono the player moving it I dont have to worry about that either way, I use a Halo, I think it would take a middle to high bore rifle to get that thing moving

[cphilip]

Originally posted by gatorchris
I respectfully disagree with all of you. 10.21 is eliminations for marking, 10.25 is eliminations for seperating from equipment, they cant be used to rule on each other.

You are not in disagreement at all with us and niether are we with you. We were talking about pods thrown, dropped discarded etc not being "carried" at the time they are shot. Here is what you reffer too:

carrying...

We are in agreement on that. He could be carrying a watermellon and it would be an elimination!

The question comes in when it strikes it after it's not in his possession and so not his equipment anymore by the exception for pods etc and then someone picks it up. We all interpret that to be an elimination and pretty much have too, I guess, but it's at odds with the equipment rule and exception AND with 10.21 where he is described because he is no longer carrying it. It's when you try and apply it to the person not touching it at the time its marked and picking it up later that its totaly an interpretation only made nessecary by lack of a NPPL rule itself.

You and I interpret it the same way for lack of anything better. It should be clearly defined was the point I was trying to make. And we all define it that same way as you do in Texas I think. No need to worry about that. It's cool we are just dicussing "what ifs". See now what I was trying to get at? Sorry I was not clear on it.

Still interesting how these traditional interpretations seem to evolve and people think they are in the NPPL Rules. Ask em to point it out to you and they cannot. Why?...heck they should be in there! That thing needs an updated and we need to not use it realy localy. I see people saying we are following NPPL rules at local tourneys and are no way near doing so. Its like saying your going to run your meeting my Roberts Rules and then suspending them right away because they are clearly unusable for local formats. Thats why I am writting these down the way we all realy do them. And the spent pod rule will be in mine! Clearly too!!!! :)

[cphilip]

OK let me clarify this again...

The point was that almost all local small tourneys state openly that they will use NPPL rules. Many MANY of them do. And then go about changing most of it becuase its unusable for them. This can take much time in the captains meetingts and some stuff is forgotten until we are out on the field and trying to sort it out.

A lot of the marking stuff and chrono stuff and some of the basic rules are usable. And then the interpretations we have come to expect were derived from them. But its still not set forth on paper what we realy do. We learn them from experience and trial and error. It's important we all follow the same rules so we can go play nationaly and know what to expect and practice for. It's hight time to adopt a set of standards we all can agree with and put them down on paper with enough lattitude to adjust to the particular field and number of entrants. So each player knows the rules and each judge knows the rules. And if there is a dispute it can clearly be pointed to on a piece of paper. "Right there it is" we can say! Game set match...