Avalanche Allegedly Caught Cheating and Thrown out of WC

[MagDog68]

thei3ug - I am seeing your point though I have to read between the lines to get it. You come off sounding a bit like you are excuse this cheating because of past offenses by other teams, but I don't think that's your point.

Regardless, I do think that someone needs to be made an example of - and this seems to be outrageous enough an incident for the NPPL to take a firm stand against cheating. Avalanche should loose something in this matter, that is the only way to show the other pros that cheating to this degree is not worth it. Simply forfieting a single event is not nearly severe enough. Whether this was an individual choice (which I highly doubt) or it was a team effort, the pros have to be held to a higher standard and should take the punishment as a team. If we say it was only Jeremy's fault then we give all teams the ability to scapegoat one member and play on as though nothing had happened.

Shartley is right in saying that we all have to accept some forms of dishonesty in Pro sports...I can live with someone that wipes, but a non-player shooting into a professional event and scoring points for his team is ridiculous. The line must be drawn somewhere and a simple slap on the wrist is not going to cut it.

The NPPL is really to blame for this; they let so much crap get away for so long that there really aren't any penalties pros are afraid of. Serious suspensions and in this case I would say banishment is the best way to scare the pros into playing straight.

~Fred

[hitech]

Originally posted by cphilip
Since when do we get to the point that we do not hold our hands up as we walk off the fields and then get all upset when we get bonus balled for it? Idiots!!!! Keep your hands up !!! I gonna pop you again too! And when it it we are going to crack down on cursing and vulgar gesturing? I am a bit sickened by some of the stuff I saw.

THIS is the main thing that keeps me from wanting anything to do with "major" tournaments. There are other personal factors, but even without them this would keep me away. It's just amazing to me how far we have regressed. The NPPL was formed because "they" didn't like the way Lively ran his tournaments. What a HUGE mistake, IMO (I'm never humble).

[hitech]

Re: They should try

Originally posted by Nick1Shot
Can you imagine how much that would change the outcame of these pro games if they lost points for cussing out a ref?

Yes I can. When I reffed in Lively's tournaments that WAS the case. And I can tell you it is real easy to end that kind of behavior with a "one more xxx and you're going to be penalized". Doesn't make you popular, but it does keep things under control.

[benzy2]

i absolutley dont condone this but think of other sports.
Baseball gives you three strikes.
Football gives you a 5-10 yard penelty.
basket ball gives you fouls.
hockey-my god you can beat a man for a 5 minute max penalty.
we have so harsh rules as is for breaking rules. It is no fun to always play fair. No other mainstream sport plays with no minor penelties. We need to let little things be a part of the game and give them a slight disadvantage. Otherwise you have people getting so frustrated with having to play perfect that they cheat so bad. Its like telling a little kid to never touch the button. So he does it. If you say you can touch it a few times and each time lose a little candy he does it less and less. The harder i push down on the players the harder the players push back.
just my $.02. I know most of you hate the whole cheating thing but we need to embrace it as it doesnt go away. But it can be reduced.

[LittMag]

benzy2- I completely disagree with you on your points, you cannot compare paintball to most sports. The analogies cannot be stretched.
In no other sport can you hide or take away a hit like wiping in paintball... a baseball player cannot hide a ball in his glove, then jump for a homerun and pretend he caught it.

Penalties for other sports are for conduct, for say shooting hot or for knocking over a bunker and so forth.

In no other sport can you cuss out a ref. You should be ejected, and you are with any other sport.

I know most of you hate the whole cheating thing but we need to embrace it as it doesnt go away. But it can be reduced.

We should NOT embrace cheating. It should NOT be tolerated. It will not completely go away, but it should NOT be tolerated at all.

[Lone Brain Cell]

benzy2...Just what planet are you on???
The guy just didnt cheat a little, This was the worst case of blatant, premeditated cheating. not just an infrigement on the rules for a hand ball or forward pass that they could get a 5-10 yard penalty as a result. They sent another player into the bush to just in case they were loseing he could shoot into the feild and take out some opposition!

The guy (And possibly the team) should be banned for life!

[Trunnion]

paintball DOES have minor penalties for minor infractions. playing on with an obvious hit is a one-for-one penalty as described in section 12.4 Assessment of Penalties in the NPPL rules. this section also states that wiping, which is rather rampant, calls for a three for one penalty, the ref not only pulling the offender but also three of his teammates. Salm's infraction falls far outside the 'normal' realm of paintball rule violations into something that is not mentioned in the rules but is obviously wrong. you could possibly make a stretch and include salm in 12.31 as a spectator with a gun, but there are no definied penalties for such. regardless, his actions required a severe penalty, and while i don't feel it was severe enough, it was certainly beyond the normal scope of paintball penalties. cheating is still cheating, it should not be embraced or accepted just because it's common place. would you go so far as to say killing russian civillians is ok because the germans did it so often during WWII? i don't think so. get a clue, cheating should never be condoned.

[rudy]

benzy not only are you totaly wrong as to what others have said but also in your line of thought. ok minor rules are not there because they want people to be able to cheat and make the game more interesting they are there cause. A) a call can be wrong and you dont want to end a carreer or cost a team a game on a wrong call. or B) cause the cheat or infraction does is not great enough to effect the outcome of a game. or C) because it is a balence to make reffing and rule fowllowing easier. what salm did does not fit into any category however his team does fit onto one we dont knwo for cirtain they were involved.they caught him red handed no mistake and it entirely effected the outcome of the game. so it deserves a harsh penalty.

[Trigger_Happy]

I don't know where to draw the line. The whole team for life? The whole team for ___ years? Salm had better get life!!!! The team had to have known! If they didn't, then Salm loses 1,000 more points for jepordizing thier careers without thier knowledge.

All I know is that this kind of thing disgusts me! It makes me want to spit in someone's face! Cheating always goes on in the upper levels, and that is bad, but potshots from the woods pegging the opposition in th back...I just can't believe it happened! I just wish that nothing worse than this will ever happen to the sport, but it will. If a SERIOUS example is not made, players will stoop lower and lower and I will become less shocked when they do.

I just can't believe this happened. *gag*

[Trigger_Happy]

Benzy-Baseball, football, etc. give minor penalties for minor offences. In paintball, points are subtracted for minor offences. THIS IS A BIG DEAL! A football player who knifes his opposition to death doesn't get a 10 yard penalty!

We can't let Salm get away with knifing by giving him a 10 yard penalty, or other players will take up the tactic as a satisfactory means to an end.

You say we must embrace cheating because it will always be with us, but that that is like legalizing crackhouses instead of raiding them because "there is always going to be some".

Does what I'm saying make sense to you? I want more of your opinion. Thanks!

[Timmee]

I think it's funny that a lot of people say "Oh, the whole team had to have known". Why? Isn't it possible that Salm had this planned out? From what I've read, he left about an hour before the game in question and supposedly went back to the hotel. How far from the hotel was the field in question? If it was relatively close, he could have had plenty of time to go to the hotel, change, and get back.

It was also asked why Ed had his gear with him. Is it possible that he brought his gear in the hopes of one of the members of Avalanche NEEDING a break? Couldn't he have used Salm's gear for the game?

I wasn't there, and I don't have all the facts, therefore I won't make any statements about stuff I don't know about. However, I do think that even if the NPPL doesn't give Salm a bigger suspension or ban, his career in the NPPL (and probably every other major series) is over.

[shartley]

Originally posted by benzy2
i absolutley dont condone this but think of other sports.
Baseball gives you three strikes.
Football gives you a 5-10 yard penelty.
basket ball gives you fouls.
hockey-my god you can beat a man for a 5 minute max penalty.

[oldsoldier]

You know, regardless of whether or not the team knew about it, the team deserves the penalty. As a captain, hell as the OWNER and COAch, or whatever, Ed is responsible for his peoples actions. Period. Regardless of whether he knows of them or not.
For instnace, me, being in the military, am responsible for my men. They can be home on leave, a thousand miles away. They get arrested for something. Guess what? I suffer too. Granted, I dont get the penalties associated with an arrest, but the mere fact that one of my soldiers did something to compromise a certain standard, and me being responsible for him, due to my position as a leader, I receive repremands and repercussions as well. I cant throw my hands in the air and say "hey, its not my fault the kid is a screw up". It IS my fault. He should know better. He is an adult, capable of making rational decisions. I see this as the same situation. Ed needs to accept responsibility for what happened. Jeremy will never play pro again. I think if he does, a lot of companies will suffer. Ed and his team need to be penalized; either monetarily, or removed from the circuit for a period of time. That is the ONLY way other teams will not think about doing this.
Look at it this way; if Salm is the only guy to go down for this, and, if in fact this wasnt the only team he did this too, dont you think that another pro team will send someone out to do the same thing, hoping they dont get caught, but, if they do, they can deny any knowledge of it, and not risk losing sponsorship and/or money? I think a lot of pro teams may take thatchance, if they think they can get away with it.

[1stdeadeye]

Huh?

Originally posted by benzy2
i absolutley dont condone this but think of other sports.
Baseball gives you three strikes.
Football gives you a 5-10 yard penelty.
basket ball gives you fouls.
hockey-my god you can beat a man for a 5 minute max penalty.

Apples to apples man! How can you compare these?

In football, a major penalty yields you an ejection and suspension. Ask Dexter Manley, banned for life!

In Baseball, they believe in integrity and will ban a player. Ask Pete Rose!

Hockey, well that really isn't a major league sport . Ask Ty Dome (sp?), he was banned for a while for his assault in Canada last year.

Basketball will enforce suspensions and punish cheaters. Ask the Minnesota Timberwolves what happens when a team tries to cheat, major fines and loss of draft picks. Ask Latrell Sprewell about going to far, lost lots of money and banned for the rest of a season.

So please apples to apples and oranges to oranges

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by oldsoldier
For instnace, me, being in the military, am responsible for my men.

This is totally true. They say it is lonely at the top. That is because no one lets you get away with the excuse, "its not my fault. I didn't know." That is the slogan for people who don't want to grow up.

Speaking of growing up some of these stories disturb me. I play paintball because I "feel like a kid playing cops and robbers". I love that feeling. Still the analogy can only go so far. Stories about an adult bonus balling someone because that player had eliminated them in a previous match?

This goes beyond that youthful feeling. That is just juvenile.