US Service for Euro E-Mag???????????

[RobAGD]

That was not in your orginal question.

If you are at an event staffed by AGD tech we will try to service the gun. If you had read what I had writen you would understand that they guns are just about all hand built. And as they are MADE by AGDE and NOT AGD USA they are treats as non AGD USA markers.

WDP guns are all MADE in england, there isnt a WDP in the states making gun and a WDP uk making guns.

Apples and Oranges

-Robert

[pbgunrunner]

Re: Re: US Service for Euro E-Mag???????????

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gunga
[B]

AGD Europe Extremes will not be worked on by AGD US.


I understand what I was told on this board as quoted by Gunga. I also understand that all of the AGDE guns were hand built and that the UK was used for the beta testing instead of us so some of the parts will NOT interchange. But what bothers me is a BLANKET statement from represenitives of a company that I have a fierce loyalty to stating that the UK guns "WILL NOT BE WORKED ON BY AGD US" And as you can see from the Pand0ra's response, I'm not the only one who is bothered by this. Why would a UK team even bother to think about droping a sizeable chunk of change on an X-mag if they had plans of competing over here? And as far as different parts and fitting go, what for Pete's sake is installing a L10 if not fitting different parts in combination to fit a particular gun? So to satisfy my ignorance, what exactly are the differences in the AGDE and AGD USA guns other than the bodys? Do they use the same boards? bolts? valves? I'd like to know.

[Won Hunglo]

Same problem!

I bought a Yamaha guitar last month. It broke so I took it to a Yamaha marine engine dealer. They told me to take it to the Yamaha guitar dealer if I wanted it fixed. He could have stopped rebuilding that Yamaha boat motor and fixed my Yamaha guitar. And I thought Yamaha was Yamaha was a Yamaha...

Dude, just by a real American made E-Mag.

[Spaceman613]

Won... that was comparing apples to cheese... Not even the same ballpark.

The guy is just trying to find out if a AGDE marker can be fixed at AGD. And as Im reading this, a few others seem to be interested.

I know that if a D-10 (Caterpillar) made in my hometown couldnt be fixed in Brazil by a CAT dealer, then CAT wouldnt be a multi billion dollar company. Might be a better example of other industries with foreign facilities.

This isnt a free fix question as i understand it, its a general fix question.

And is the opposite true? Will AGDE fix an AGD marker? like if someone bought an x-mag at the World cup (Orlando) would he be screwed if something broke? Oversees shipping sux, it would definitely make me think before buying one if i did a lot of oversees play.

[Kevmaster]

am i the only one who thinks this whole issue has been blown out of proportion?? spaceman, pbgun...you both claim to be in IL. do you have AGDE XMags? if not, why in the world are you argueing!?!

[pbgunrunner]

Did you even read the posts?

The first post that started this mess states that I have an opportunity to buy a Euro X-Mag (and I already have an E-Mag). The reason for us to be concerned is based in the fact that we are LOYAL to AGD. I've watched my beloved 'mags pretty much fall off the Tourney scene, and I see fewer and fewer of them in the hands of rec ball players. I have had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Kaye as well, His vision (or my perception of his vision)for his company was to out service ANYONE, this was passed on to us when we took his service class all the way back in the early 90's. I don't want to see the company I have put my faith in all these years make a MAJOR business mistake in adopting an Us/Them attitude about AGD products. Spaceman is right in his comment about worldwide parts and service ability being a hallmark of a successful global company- You can NOT survive in the global market without it. As far as Won Hunglo's idiotic analogy about the Yamaha's-if AGD had a paintball,motorcycle/atv, marine, construction,heavy equipment, piano,and band instrument division there wouldn't be a thread here, but they don't-AGD makes PAINTBALL GUNS. I still support my theory that this will come back to bite AGD in the rear end when it shouldn't have to be this hard. If you intend on being a global player, support you product globally-if not stay in the US and continue to fight for your market share here. Either way, I'll still shoot AGD guns, my loyalty was bought back in apparently simpler times. -pbgunrunner

BTW-just in case there is a mis-understanding -will AGD repair any other AGDE gns other than the euro x-mag? This might be a way out guys, you'd bastardize one one-off model, but could still support the others, or will AGDE continue to offer guns different from the US models?

[Spaceman613]

Not sure about the other guy.... But I was thinking of getting one. Thinking twice now. Reason I am wondering (arguing?) is that if I happen to get one on a trade that originally cam for the UK, would I be SOL if something happened. Afterall, how would I get one from AGDUS? The waits still many months. And I DONT want a CnC version. I dont think I was arguing, Im just curious. And some of the "examples" are a little rediculous.

Looks like I wont be getting an X-mag for a long time. And good luck to anyone to happens to have a Brit version.

[manike]

Originally posted by RobAGD
Part of teh problem lies in the fact that a lot of the Euro Extremes are kind of one offs, there was no set number for somethings and in that manner the are more like the Micromag bodies in that they have special hand fitted parts in them to get them to work.

If you changed something that was "fit" to that gun when you swapped your level 10 into the gun that could be your problem.

The only parts that I know of that aren't common between both are the ACE, and there were rumours of that being commonised also. Everything else is standard 'AGD' stuff.

There are no 'hand fitted parts' to Euro X-mags other than ACE installations and modules.

There are quite a few prototype Euro X-mags around but I can't think of any AGD parts on them that aren't standard. The prototype stuff all relates to milling and ACE installations as far as I am aware.

A few module developments but all the new ones fit on the old bodies I think...

manike

[1stdeadeye]

Question?

Please don't flame me as this is an innocent question.

Does Tom own AGD-Europe or did he just franchise it to John Sosta?

If he owns it, there is no excuse for AGD-US to not work on the European Markers. If he franchised the name, then there is no reason for him to work on someone else's markers in his shop.

I guess the breakdown should really be if Tom pockets any money from the sale of a particular marker, then either AGD should service it!

[Pand0ra]

Re: Re: Why?

Originally posted by Gunga

Again, AGD US will not service or warranty these guns.

The real problem lies here. It looks like AGD USA won't do anything on the markers, whatever you're willing to pay.

What I see here is a lot of market protections (which means we'll never have an answer of Tom about the servicing, as he simply can't give it without causing troubles later), and a big lack of communications between the two entities of AGD.
Looks like AGD-USA doesn't even know what AGD-E is doing, at least in details.

Bahhh after all does it mather so much? I know what will happen if I comes to the AGD-USA booth with my Emag C&C in case of troubles .

@++

[proteus81]

AGDE fixed my SFL

I am an SFL owner from Scotland, UK.
My SFL was purchased from the US, but AGDE were quite willing to upgrade it for me for just the price of the return shipping.
Shortly after buying it, I experienced a problem with ball breakage and lock-up, so I purchased a Lev 10 kit, but it did not solve my problem. I obtained an RMA no. and sent it in to AGDE.
They updated the module and installed the ACE system at no charge, even though my problem turned out to be a faulty circuit board and charger. Since then the gun has been great.
My point is that the X-Mag was of U.S. origin, but they provided warranty for me in Europe, with no questions asked.
This wasn't an oversight on their part, as SFL's are known to be a U.S. version.
ROb, I'm confused by your comments that the Euro X-Mags have non std parts. I spoke with a Tech from AGDE, and was told that all X-Mag bodies & modules are manufactured by AGDE in the UK, and shipped over to AGD U.S., so how are the bodies different ?
The valve, circuit board & other parts are made by AGD U.S., and shipped over to the U.K., so what parts aren't standard ?
He also told me that the only difference between the 2 versions, was the ACE. The Euro version is a wiring loom, and the U.S. version is a circuit board. They have identical components & software. He told me, as of December, the Euro X-Mag will also have the ACE circuit board, so there will be no difference whatsoever, bewtween the two versions.
I've read some of the comments that compare this with Sony, Yamaha etc, but this is a totally different situation, because this is a high end sporting item, and tournament paintball is an international sport.
What will AGD US say if a US player is refused tech support at one of the big Millenium series events ?
I think AGDE would fix their X-mag anyway, but AGD U.S.'s
attitude has left a very bad taste in my mouth, as AGD as a whole have always prided themselves with superb customer support.
Can AGDE or Tom Kaye please clear this up, as without your comments we may be just arguing about hearsay.
:)

[AGD]

Ok I am stepping in here.

When we sell the guns to AGDE we give them a tremendous discount based on the fact they have to sell them for the same price we do here AFTER they pay shipping, taxes and make a profit. For the profit they make they have to fix the guns thats why its worth us doing euro distribution because even though we make very little on them they go out the door and don't come back.

Now comes the X-mags and in the course of developing them they sell them to beta testers with stage ? breaches, hand made ace boards etc. We are not putting them out here because we don't feel they are ready and England is doing the testing.

Now all of you in your desperation to have the perfect fantasy gun of your dreams are snagging these guns out of Europe so you can say you have one now. What you don't realize is that "A" we don't know what's what with those guns and "B" we never sold them and made a normal profit to begin with so we can't afford to fix them.

With that in mind we have to nip this flow of euro x-mags coming over here by saying we are not going to touch those things. This is a no win situation for us, either we get guns in we cant fix because of custom stuff or we try to fix them and loose money or tell the customers no and they get pissed off at us.

Once a gun is cut&carved we dont even have a way to clamp the body so it can be machined to current specs. Heck even if we could we dont have the program or the mill to do it. There are NO actual production ACE boards with on/off switches in any gun anywhere in the world at this time. ANYTHING out there now we still consider prototype, the euro ones dont have anything even closely resembling the ACE boards that are currently going into production.

So does this mean that if you come here from europe for a toruney and your gun breaks and you bring it to our booth will we look at it? Sure we will. If you have a valve problem we are likely to fix it on the spot. If you have one of these early beta guns with a breach problem or an ace problem there is just no way on earth we can help you and your screwed. If you listen to what I'm telling you and wait for the final production guns to get to europe in the next month or two AND THEN come here for a tourney and walk up to the table we will be in a much better position to help you.

So be warned, you buy a gun from europe YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN! You have to send it back to europe to get it fixed. We will look at the gun at a tourney and MAYBE we can fix it but we will not accept them back at the factory for any reason what so ever.

Don't call us, don't wine and don't complain I told you so.

AGD

[proteus81]

Tom,
Thanks for finally commenting on this, but to be honest, I feel dissapointed in your attitude, as you are totally undermining your company & your products.
I am also still very confused by your comments. You say in your post :

"Now comes the X-mags and in the course of developing them they sell them to beta testers
with stage ? breaches, hand made ace boards etc. We are not putting them out here because we don't feel they are ready and England is doing the testing"

Well forgive me, but you have put them out in the shape of the SFL, which I am an owner of.
SFL's have the earliest breach set-up, and don't have an ACE at all, and you posted on this forum that you would upgrade all SFL's to the latest spec. SFL's are U.S. origin, so I assume that you have to honour this commitment ?
If you can upgrade SFL's (which are also C&C) why would you have difficulty working on a Euro X-mag ?
While I appreciate that the early Euro X-mags had the ACE as a loom, and not a circuit board, I have been told by AGDE that the components are more or less the same. Therefore, if you can upgrade SFL's, and the ACE components are virtually the same, where is the problem ?
Anyway, we're not talking about upgrades, just general tech support. i.e. a broken circuit board or valve, which I belive you manufacture.
You also keep refering to Euro "Beta" X-Mags. Well from what I have been told by Beta testers in Norway, there are only a very small number, which AGDE regularly update.
However, my friend is due to take delivery of his C&C Fade X-Mag next week. He is not a Beta Tester, and his X-Mag includes the X-Mag alumnium valve and the ACE circuit board with the on/off switch, so they are now, pretty much up to U.S. spec.

You have always said on this forum, which I regularly read, that you are crap at marketing, well Tom I am in the marketing industry, and what you are doing here is marketing suicide.
You finally have a product after all these years, which performs great, and with the modular body is innovative, and looks fantastic, yet you decide to let down your loyal customers.
And Tom it is mainly loyal customers who are trying to buy this product at the moment.
I myself bought an SFL, when it first came out, as I have been waiting for AGD to produce something like this for so long. Now I find that those of us who have shown loyalty & confidence in the product, are to be punished for it.
Lets face it, the only reason people are trying to buy guns from Europe, is because they desperately want the product, but are being quoted very long delivery times. With the Internet revolution, it's inevitable that people will buy on-line. Sometimes they don't even know where the product is coming from. They may buy it on E-Bay, or another on-line source, only to hear that you won't support it in the U.S. I find this to be even more ridiculous because we can only be talking about a small number of guns. You have expressed on this forum, many times that ultimately, you would like custom paintball
companies to C&C their own bodies. Companies like Paintball Planet, Shocktech & Pro-Team Products.
Well do you really think that these companies will refuse to sell the product internationally ?
No, Pro team & Shocktech have already shipped their versions into Europe, I know because I bought one
very easily. At no point do they tell their unknowing customers that the product will not be supported
by their local AGD outlet.
I have been very lucky, because AGDE did not refuse to work on my gun, even though they did not sell it.
However, I assume this may now change, as a result of your comments on here. I will call them today to ask for clarification.
In the meantime, I suggest you change your Warranty policy page on your website, as there is no mention of this new policy anywhere.
As you can see from mine, and previous posts, your attitude will push many loyal customers towards purchasing
another brand of gun.

[manike]

I'm suprised and dissapointed by all this to be honest...

Proteus81, that was a very well thought out post and I have to say it sums up my views on this also.

The latest batch of X-mags from AGDE are all to the same specifications as the USA X-mags. Same ACE, Same Aluminium valve, Same software, Same bodies, Same modules. Identical, in fact all the parts are made in the same places as the ones for the USA X-mags... Bodies and modules are made in Europe, valves and normal e-mag parts are made in the USA...

All Euro X-mags have been (or can be upgraded to these specs, I believe AGDE contacted all Euro owners to upgrade them...)

So therefore all X-mags Euro and USA are compatible parts etc. There may be one or two Euro mags with different ACE set ups (but they use the same components and schematic for connections...) But if there is an issue with that you just unplug it from the board and the rest of the gun is the same spec as a USA gun. And you can fix that and get it to work if it goes wrong. I expect those users can stomach if it's the ACE that you can't help and the gun will need to go to the UK.

Most gun problems are due to valve issues (all made by AGD USA) or electronics (all made by AGD apart from ACE, but soon that will be also and will all be identical, but I'm not sure where it's made.)

So ultimately everything will be to the same spec as far as any parts from AGD Europe. In fact everything is pretty much already.

At both Shatnerball and World Cup I used parts from other people's extremes on my gun :) Batteries both times when I forgot to charge mine (oops!) and when demonstating the warp module at WC I didn't have mine so picked up one from another gun and put it on. They all fit and work. Actually I also put someone elses vert feed on my gun when my Halo was full of paint and so tightly on that I didn't want to take it off and spill paint.

I wonder do AGD USA refuse to work on Eclipse mags when they get them in the USA? I know of many USA people that have Eclipse guns... And on that point if you are trying to get big custom houses who are not USA based, such as Eclipse, how will they feel if you refuse to work on any Euro guns? They do most of their custom business with the USA and would not be happy I expect.

With the advent of the internet (and thanks to things like this Forum) people will buy and sell from all over the world. I know of several people who legitimately bought an X-mag in the UK and then ended up selling it due to sponsor issues etc. Paul Collier for instance with the lovely blue to silver fade gun ended up selling it via these very forums to a USA guy (Snakestang I think).

I think a decision to not work on Euro Guns is crazy, especially considering how few there are out and how few will ever make it to the USA (and how they are the same as USA X-mags anyway). If AGD Europe decided to do similar then there would be a huge number of unhappy Europeans who bought guns in the USA or via the internet, and the great Quality Customer service, on a flagship product, which AGD prides itself on would dissapear...

manike

[luke]

I understand both sides of the issue.

Toms view is that the prophet margin (among other problems) is so low that he can't afford to warranty these guns. This is COMPLETELY understandable. You can't run a viable business without making a prophet. But, on the other hand, it's bad business to not work ( I didn't say warranty ) on guns that bares the AGD name. In all fairness, most people will not know this when purchasing a "Mag". When I purchased my Micro, I assumed it would be warranted by AGD, a quick phone call told me other wise.

I have never seen it written until now that the markers coming Europe would not be serviced in the US. I think it would be appropriate to note this on airgun.com , AO, AGDE and even ProTeams (in regard to Micros) web sites. Some people will take notice and consider this when deciding what "Mag" is right for them.

I think the only smart move for Tom would be to work on the guns from AGDE, but charge the customer a rate that is profitable. This way he maintains customer service but doesn't lose money. BUT, warn as many people as possible up front that AGDE products will be worked on, but not be warranted in the US.