PC insanity at DDay game...

[Tron]

I like how you are using people who are effected by it as an excuse not do to it. Because I really doubt your grandmother is going to show up and play.

[Trench_Riader]

Littmag--- That argument doesn't hold much water. For example, my great great grandfather lost lost his leg at Atlanta serving under Hood. (That would be the American "Civil War" for those who don't know) I, like many other people, take many of the issues the war was fought over (ie. State's Right, Smaller Federal goverment ETC) quite seriously. However I'm not offended by the sight of a blue uniform! In fact I used to wear that uniform in "Civil War" reenactments.

Time lessens the bite of the injustices of that war...it will eventually be the same with WW2.

Oldsoldier---

All sides were guilty of atrocities. The US 42nd Infantry division massacred over 100 Waffen SS troops in an incident during the drive into Germany. Is the sight of the 42's divisional patch offensive to you?

And actually they started off with a single regiment of Waffen SS troops. This was later expanded into the 1st SS panzer Division "LAH". And I don't think their status was "mythical" at all. Granted, the foreign-raised units and many of the later numbered units (which you are correct in stating never reached divisional size, but WERE numbered 1-38 rather than the "20 somthing" you claim). However many of the lower numbered German raised divisions (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 9th, 12th for example) had a record second to none. Good soldiers in a bad cause if you will...

And thanks for the complement....

"Trench Raider"

[AutomagRT1483]

I think that they should not have gotten rid of the SS and the Swastica symbols. Only the most fanatical germans were nazis and only a few ss brigades were nazis as well. My great uncle was one of the fanaticals, he was a Field Marshall in the Waffen SS. He was a very bad guy and i don't relate to him at all. But, it is their choice to get rid of the symbols and thats not going to stop me from going and having some good ole fun!

[AutomagRT1483]

Trench_Raider,
I totally agree with you.

[Trench_Riader]

AutomagRT1483--You say they should ban the iconography yet you say you totally agree with me? heh, which is it?

But you are correct. It's a privately owned site and they are free to set whatever rules they want....but it doesn't mean I can't gripe about what I consider to be a foolish move.

Cheers,
"Trench Raider"

[AutomagRT1483]

I didn't really mean to say to ban it, its just that its their right as a privately owned facilty to ban it. If I were in their shoes I wouldn't have banned either one.

[Trench_Riader]

oops...I miseread your post. Disregard.

Thanks,
"Trench Raider"

[Creative Mayhem]

This is just the opion of someone who knows people on both sides, but I am of German decent, and I do not condone the actions of my ancestors. As a matter of fact my grandfather fought against the Nazis in WWII. I have friends whose fathers actually served the Nazis. Who's right and who's wrong? Whether it started as a differance in ideology, or just the ravings of a madman that went too far, I really don't know, I wasn't there. What I do know is war is hell from both sides of the line. I think this reenactment, is in some way, reminding us of what it could have been like. People will always be against such things, just as people will always be against roll playing in video games, or the reliving of these and other terrible events in the movies. Again I say, who's right and who's wrong?

All we can do is hope and pray the such attrocities will never happen again.


C Mayhem

[Trench_Riader]

All we can do is hope and pray the such attrocities will never happen again.

Amen.

However, human nature being what it is, somehow I don't feel confident....

"Trench Raider"

[Webmaster]

You see, I went and did a bit of research after my post. I wanted to see how large the german re-enactors crowd was - and what was their motivation.

All of them almost immediately post up a warning that they are not white-supremecist - and do not condone or agree to the ideals of the nazi party. All of them point out how the average german soilder was fighting for his country - and how many of them were often decieved by utopia like ideals in order to bring thier country up from a horrible depression in the 30's.

I also noted a distict air of professionalism. They were VERY picky on where they got thier replica uniforms, and wanted to be sure that everything - from facial hair to eye glasses were historically accurate.

I generally support such endevores - as the troups I have seen who have put such efforts in re-eneacting history do a very good job of it. They do provide a good, realistic simulation of what went on all those years ago. For people who experiance them at sactioned events - its a great lesson in living history.

I still cant see why one would want to play german - but I suppose there is a sort of rush playing the "bad guy". I also agree the uniforms are sharp. The Nazis were absolute masters of propaganda and creating a grand image for thier third reich.

I suppose my statment is - that an event like D-Day - wounldnt really have a place for these re-enactors. Re-enactors strive for historical accuracy, and present themselves in a professional manner. However - I dont think a paintball game is really a professional venue for them. For every "real" re-enactor you would have 3 bubba smiths out there with inaccurate costumes. This would lead to actually being counter productive to what re-enactors try to achieve (to educate the public).

Perhaps of there was an "offical" US and German camp where actual re-enactors were seen milling about - this could serve as a proper venue. But as for re-enactors playing a game dressed in full garb - it just seem to go against what re-enacting is all about.

D-Day IS just a game. Yes it SORT OF gives you an appreciation of the real event - but it is still just a game. It is by no means a professional re-eneactment and thus shouldnt be considered an event where serious re-enactors would be expected to particitpate.

So, Id get in your camo and just go have a fun time, and leave the runes etc for an event more worthy of them.

PS - Yes the russians and the japanesse, and even the brits and americans were all guilty of war attrocities. While the wehrmacht was a fine honed killing machine, it at least played by some rules of civility. The russians routinely used unarmed prisoner as mine sweepers. Stalin was also very intolorent of failure and didnt allow his troops to ever retreat. Thier ill preparedness at times left these soilders fighting with no weapons. The japannesse were fanatical in their devotion to thier emporer - and would fight to the last man and refused to surrender. They were also noted for being cruel to the POWs they captured.

War isnt fun kids, no matter how slick hollywood makes it. If you have a vet in your family who has seen combat - odds are they wont want to talk about details. And some people cant ever put those events behind them.

[Fred]

Wow, longwinded thread.

I, personally, don't want to see swastikas on the field.

My grandparents were German, living in Poland and Yugoslavia respectively, and some of my great uncles were in the German army. My grandpa wasn't, since he was too young (even at the end of the war).

It should be pointed out, that even if the Nazis were in control, the vast majority of Germans were NOT Nazis, and an even smaller fraction followed Hitlers schemes. I know for a fact at least two of my great uncles were in the SS Panzerr divisions, why? because that's where they were assigned when they were conscripted.

Horrible things happened to many people on account of the Nazis, there is no denying it.


on a side note, I'd love to see a movie about what happened to the German families like mine when the Russians took over so much of eastern europe... my family's story is even more dramatic than a lot of stuff out of Schindler's list (uncles were captured by Russians, escaped, family was stuck in a labor camp, managed to escape, trekked across germany to the Americans to surrender, were sent back to the russians...), and my mom and I are in the process of getting the entire oral history from all of our surviving relatives that lived through that time period.

---Fred

[Webmaster]

Fred,

I think thats a great idea.

My wife gets rather upset that nearly every hollywood movie centers on the jews and thier plight. While she has nothing against them - she gets upset that no one wants to tell the tales of poles, who were rounded up and sent to camps too - jewish or not. As well as people from nearly every other country who was invaded. People were rounded up and killed or forced into labor camps. Many christains were also killed, catholics and protestants. While its understandable that someone like Spielberg would want to tell a tale centered around jews, we need a couple movies to remind people that it wast just the jews that suffered -but people from many nations, religions, and creeds.

[Rooster]

I still cant see why one would want to play german - but I suppose there is a sort of rush playing the "bad guy". I also agree the uniforms are sharp. The Nazis were absolute masters of propaganda and creating a grand image for thier third reich.

Its kind of hard to have a good re-enactment if no one is willing to play the other side.

[Tack]

[oldsoldier]

Webby, good post. I think that if it gets kids to ask about it, it serves the purpose. I was actually surprised when I asked some coworkers two questions; one, what year did declare war in WWII, and two; what was the date of D-day. Some had no idea of the date of D-day, and one got the declaration correct. I have to say I was mildly surprised at this.
Also, kudos to you for the research on reenactors. I think in it a common misconception (gee, we all know about those, dont we?) that people who dress as Wermacht, or whatever, and wear the insignia are "automatically" considered Nazis. These folks, for the most part, are very educated when it comes to WWII. This applies, at least in my experience, to any reenactor. I learned alot of Civil War history just by going to a couple of reenactments and asking some questions.
As an aside, there is a guy whom I know who has one of 2 shirts in existence that Hitler wore. He also has complete uniforms, diaries, and papers of some very high-ranking Nazi party leaders. This guy knows damn near everything about the whole German struggle from the end of WWI up to their final defeat. Is he a Nazi? Not by any length. I think he, like you pointed out, is attracted to the fact that the uniforms were sharp,the history is intriguing, and collecting Nazi memorabilia is an interesting (albeit EXPENSIVE) hobby. Anyway, thanks for putting the subject to rest, and I am glad that the question was clarified. I wholeheartedly agree that prominent flags and armbands shouldnt be allowed; after all, that was the political party that wore them, not the grunts in the field.
One more thing, then I'll shut up. The reason the Japanese were cruel to their prisoners was because they didnt see us as soldiers; we were invaders, and, therefore they felt we didnt deserve to be treated as soldiers. They basically classified us as subhuman. Of course, we did the same thing to them, only the ones we did it to were American citizens...
Well, thanks all for the history! I hope someone reading these posts learned something.