Scenario Players???? Poll

[hitech]

I probably shouldn't hijack Tom's thread to talk about how I have seen paintball change, but I'm going to anyway.

I too have played since the "beginning" (I think it was 1986). I played in many tournaments back then as a member of Constant Pursuit (maybe you old guys know who we were). I've never played in any scenario or big games but have always wanted to. I have seen a lot of changes, some for the better, some for the worse.

The Better

Paint has gotten much cheaper. So has the equipment, from goggles to markers. You can buy quality equipment for maybe half what it use to cost. And in most cases it's better too. This directly related to the increase in sales. Making paintball more mainstream. More sales generally equals lower costs. More people showing up at the field also makes for a target rich environment, and that's good too.

The Worse

Not everything is better, however. Tournaments are in my opinion the single biggest disappointment. I thought we (old school tourny players) we whinny cry babies. We couldn't hold a candle to the new crop of players. Not all of them, but too many of them. And the language. Why do the prompters put up with that? Cheating taken to new levels. It's bad. The tournament scene is a mess as far as I am concerned. I'm glad I am not involved anymore. It's not just tournaments either. I remember when overshooting was a "crime" (sorry, couldn't help it). Prior to a year ago I had NEVER been overshoot or "Bonus Balled". NEVER, including tournaments. In the last year I've lost count of the overshooting and bonus balls. I guess that paintball is now attracting those with really bad attitudes.

While I really enjoyed the old days, I think for the most part things have gotten better. I don't play in tournaments and don't have to deal with any of that. Overshooting can be (as is) dealt with by the field owners. I just think we are seeing some serious "growing pains". There you have it, my hijacking of Toms' thread is over.

[NIghtStalker001]

Tom vs Budd was the first scenario ive ever been too and it was great.I will play another again.What i didnt like was paying 75.00 bucks a case for cheap paint.if your gonna charge that much at least give us some marbs or diablo,not 32 degrees.the action was great but i had to keep checking for broken paint cause my shots were everywhere.but to my suprise there was no broken paint just crappy paint.I dont mind paying high prices i just like getting what i paid for.

[cledford]

Originally posted by hitech

Paint has gotten much cheaper. So has the equipment, from goggles to markers. You can buy quality equipment for maybe half what it use to cost. And in most cases it's better too. This directly related to the increase in sales. Making paintball more mainstream. More sales generally equals lower costs. More people showing up at the field also makes for a target rich environment, and that's good too.

I disagree on the equipment costs. Everything has gone up. Now that is in proportion to what your getting (say a JT mask vs. Uvex goggles or Emag vs. Line SI Bushmaster) but I'd bet if you ratioed it out, the prices today would the same or higher! As far as internals and upgrades, again your getting better finishes (nickel, anno), materials and design - but ratio the standard black annoed stuff machined in some crap shop from 10 years ago and I bet it almost comes out even. The paint prices have come down LOTS, but I think that is partly due to the fact that they were over inflated back in the old days to turn a profit. When the volume of players (read walk-on fees) was less the field made up for it with paint sales. Now it is the opposite threre are many players (paying fees) so paint doesn't need to be so high. I'd guess paint hasn't dropped as much as we think - although in terms of what we PAY has.

The Worse

I remember when overshooting was a "crime" (sorry, couldn't help it). Prior to a year ago I had NEVER been overshoot or "Bonus Balled". NEVER, including tournaments. In the last year I've lost count of the overshooting and bonus balls. I guess that paintball is now attracting those with really bad attitudes.

I agree on this and overshooting still shocks me when it occurs - which is all to often these days. (Never remeber it before '98 or so) I almost always confront the offender and often they think they've done nothing wrong. It is also disturbing how often you get "bonus balled" walking off the field these days. I've literally seen kids (some little, others old enough to know better) take a shot at an obvious "dead guy" just to get a chance to shoot "something."

It's a bummer that these things exist - and although they've happened since the beginning - they were never as tolerated like they are today.

Personally, I think a lot of it has to do with the average age of the player - when we started it was most adults and a few high school age kids, now it's mostly the kids and the age is dropping into the low teens. With the fast shooting markers, the video game mentality (that everything is a "fair" target") and the "extreme" image being pushed - no wonder things are getting worse.

-Calvin

[Sneaky Elmo]

I play as many scenarios as I can. It works out to about 10-12 per year. For all of you that have not played in a true Scenario (not Big Games) you need to try at least one. I think Tom can tell you once you understand the basics of the game it is a blast. The game is much more family and friend oriented. I have fixed opposing players markers during my down time. We have also invited the other teams players to join us and share are food during breakfast and dinner breaks. I think that scenario is the real future of this sport, because it involves the whole family in the sport.
We (wife and 2 kids) normally show up to a field on fri. and set up camp. Then the fun begins, a lot of players and teams bring thier families to these events. The kids get to run around and meet new friends. The adults sit around campfires or heaters if we can't have fires
and talk about what has happened since the last game or what new toys we have picked up.
So if you haven't tried one yet please do, and yes the prices are higher than normal but look at it this way. You get to play Paintball for 18-20 hours of playing time in one weekend. With walk-on rec. ball you are lucky if you get 5-7 hours of playing time.

Shawn
Tactical Paintball Gear
Team Evil Inc.

[Masterjabba]

I usually don't post much on this forum, but when I saw this topic I just had to.
The first time I saw a senario game I knew I had to play in one. Last year I attended the Michigan Monster game (its more of a big game really) but it was so much fun. I played with a group of guys known as OMHW (old men and heavy weights) they are a great group of guys.

[soaklord]

Full Auto

I have to go with the insurance companies *Shudder!* (It REALLY hurts to say that) on this one. Full auto is not only not necessary, it is a very dangerous accident waiting to happen. When you figure that the average player doesn't change lenses for any other reason than looks and that EVERY lens manufacturer recommends replacement of a lens after a shot inside of ten feet, imagine bunkering someone with full auto and tagging them four or five times in the lens at 13bps. Not out of the realm of possibility, and unfortunately, not all players can be relied on for discretion.
I do agree completely about tourney players needing a good dose of sports(wo)manship. And camo is useless at most fields, but looks cool anyway, don't ever give it up. I wear all black BDUs, but love the way they fit.

[hitech]

Originally posted by cledford
Personally, I think a lot of it has to do with the average age of the player - when we started it was most adults and a few high school age kids, now it's mostly the kids and the age is dropping into the low teens. With the fast shooting markers, the video game mentality (that everything is a "fair" target") and the "extreme" image being pushed - no wonder things are getting worse.

I have to agree. As far as I know, it has ALWAYS been someone under 25 that was guilty of overshooting/bonus balling. I'm pretty sure since I also "confront" them. Sometimes not in the manner I should.

As for prices, I paid I think it was $450 for my phantom pump. You can still buy that same gun today for $198.

[cledford]

Re: Full Auto

Originally posted by soaklord
I have to go with the insurance companies *Shudder!* (It REALLY hurts to say that) on this one. Full auto is not only not necessary, it is a very dangerous accident waiting to happen.

Paintball guns themselves are accidents waiting to happen. I'm not advocating that they (modes) be allowed in games - but I do feel that people should be allowed to have the modes if they chose - not have them deleted just because the insurance industry decides they *may* be dangerous. Where are the stats on how many people have lost eyes to guns with modes? It is my understanding (from personal conversations with Tom) that the mode issue is about someone *possibly* losing *multiple* eyes in the same accident. (Has this ever even happened?) In any event - when did we start banning things just because they're dangerous? Sports cars (and bikes) are much faster then legal limits allow (and additional performance can be bought - like nitro), alcohol is still available even though you can get near-beer, near-wine, and "virgin-drinks" - but you don't see the insurance industry trying to ban Mustangs, Ninjas, or Budweiser, do you? How necessary is it to own a car that can easily do 120+mph and due to it's styling and marketing induces it's owners to "push the limits?" Should we ban these for insurance purposes also?

A lot of people ask me why I'm so adamant about the "modes" issue. It is for 2 reasons. One, I like to test my guns for performance using a computer chrono. The only way to do valid tests is to do consistent tests. A computer pulling the trigger is a lot more accurate then a person - especially over 9bps.

Second, I KNOW that as soon as you give power to an outsider or outside group (especially one with no vested concern in your area) regardless of how much they promise not to abuse it, the chances are that they will. Who's to say that in a year (now that that the industry has caved on the "modes" issue) that they don't come back and decide that 230fps is much safer and try to impose that as well? What about the year after that, they decide that anything over 4bps is unsafe - what then?

-Calvin

[soaklord]

Calvin,

I stand (actually sit, it's too hard to type standing) corrected. You do make a very valid point about industry outsiders dictating the industry and I agree with you wholeheartedly. And you are absolutely right about the testing of the marker being far more consistent, in fact even Automag uses a full auto mode to demonstrate the 18bps they achieved with their marker. In all honesty, I have full auto on my E-99, but the only time I ever fired it was at the chrono station to see how it looked. After that, I didn't even bother with the burst modes, which one of my local fields allows in their advanced games. With the adjustability of the trigger, I can outshoot my ricochet with semi-auto on my E-99!!
The thought of even 10bps which is realistic for a low end marker and a Ricochet w/o too many breaks, is highly cost prohibitive for me. At $60 a case for decent paint (Diablo) I am looking at $15 a bag. 15/500=.03 at 10bps = $0.30 every second. 10 seconds of shooting is now costing $3.00 for a minute of shooting time in a half hour game, too much for me, I'll happily try to keep my shot volume down. Still, I understand the want for the option.

[Evil Bob]

I started playing paintball here in California in 1982, bolt action Nelspot 007 and half broken shop goggles. Over the last 20 years I've played about every variation of paintball out there all over the states and europe.

The last few years I have turned more to big games and scenarios then tourny play, mainly because the U.S. promoters do such a piss poor job of running the big name tournies that its just shameful.

Tournies: Definitely a major disappointment over the past two years, especially the last world cup game.

Big Games: Lots of targets, a very fun time.

Scenarios: Lots of targets, missions, goals, lots of different things to do all day long.

I find myself wanting to play in big scenarios more and more often simply because they're alot more fun, next to no stress, and the people that hang out there very rarely have personal identity problems nor see a need to strut around like peacocks on parade. I'm through playing tournies as of the last world cup, I've given up on any possibility of Jerry Braun pulling his head out of his tailend. From here on out I'm doing only scenarios and big games.

-Evil Bob

[logamus]

this takes me back some, my first tourny was called "8 Ball" because you were only given 8 paintballs per game. that was a fun tourny because it took the skill out of the gun and gave it to the gun user. imagine someone with a sl68-2 competing with a mag. no bonus balling there i can promise you that. reminds me of the first time i played when you could shell out an extra 30 bucks and rent the 68 special that sounded like a howitzer going off each trigger pull. what a fun gun that was. as far as cammies go, i started playing in the woods and enjoy that the best so i will prolly never rid myself of cammies. speedball is for people with more money than they know what to do with imho.

as far as senario games go, i have never played one. i have been in some big games and one 24 hour game but not a dedicated scnario game. i am going to try to make one or two this year. with d-day in oklahoma i should be able to do that and it sounds like a blast.

[Darkstorm]

Thanks for the Thread and supporting scenarios, as a few people may know I am only a rec and scenario player. I have only been playing just over a year, but have been in 7 scenarios. I am already signed up and paid for two scenarios next year and will be also playing in at least 2 other events I know of, one on each coast(can you guess what one of them is?).

In fact it is kind of a better game for those of us that are really busy. You can schedule it, there are lots of people, and lots of things going on. Further, I know of guys that buy really good guns, freak kits, etc for scenario's just because of that (when you don't have much time, may be be paying for flights, etc, the last thing you want to worry about on the field is your gun).

The people are actually some of the best I have met. Further, the culture is to have fun. And more stuff happens than in a tourney; you ever have to worry about some guy with night vision, a tank, mines, or being bunkering from creekside when the water is 4 feet deep? (Got Water?) Even if you just want to watch, the other people make it fun. Also, how many tourneys are charity events? check out... https://www.automags.org/forums/show...665#post560665

Darkstorm - Texas Rangers Scenario PBT

[Darkstorm]

BTW - Funny thing is I fit in to that catagory of guys who don't want to worry about the gun. Because of that, the fact that Tom was a really nice guy when I met him, and because of my bad paint experience at Spplat...I should have an automag with a lx by the end of the year. Not sure what, yet. (Hmmmmmm....or was that a Tom K plot the whole time to sell LX's? ).

Darkstorm
"You can't count on the paint, but you can count on the Level 10."
Home field = PaintballUSA, houston, Tx.

[rx2]

Perhaps this is just market analysis, but I must wonder, what is Mr. Kaye really up to? I can hear the evil laughter now.

I should say, though, that while I do like the fast pace of tourny-style play, scenario/big games are interesting. Unfortunately, there aren't many that take place whithin my window of possibility (or my area). Had I the chance, I would really like to give them a try.

[Candyman]

I just spent the weekend with Tom and Bud at WarLords in Southern California playing some of the funnest and most intense Scenario paintball I have seen in my last 10 games this year (excluding Shatner Ball of course)... I have driven from So. Cal to games in Chicago, Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and Nevada to play scenario games and finally I had one 15 miles from my house... I had a chance to watch Tom play "Whack-a-Mole" as the WorrLords tried to get thru the trenches and to his CP. Well a squad of 5 guys and myself under his cover fire cleared the trenches and pipes and the entire city in under 5 minutes, but then we were engaged by the Sin City Raiders who were attempting to come around over the hill at us.... scenario play makes you remember that paintball is a 3-D sport and no real battlefield is ever perfectly symmetrical like the tournament fields are.... Scenario Paintball Players are going to be the future of the sport, With Promoters like MX Sports and SPPLAT paving the way for bigger games more media exposure and more chances for the people who keep asking for an "in my area game." We can only have these with players like you talking to the field owners and telling them that if they hosted a game you would attend. Promoters will not schedule and event if there is no draw for them. This thread has shown me that there is alot more people like us who want to play scenarios if there were more of them.

I wanted to personally thank Tom Kaye for flying out to CA to play with us and take the time to understand this not so visible side of the sport. He was a great General, Awesome Battle-Tank driver/Commander, and great guy to reminisce with about the way back when days when this sport first started. To the other players who were on our team thanks for all the help in showing the best playing I have seen in a while and bringing the MagMasters to a 200+ point victory.

Yes we are out here and we will eventually be as if not more visible than Tournament since we already have a PPV on from Shatner's SPPLAT Attack. Also to anyone who can swing it I am inviting you to attend D-Day this year in Oklahoma. We had 1700+ player this year and expect to break 2000 this year. You will see Paintball Assault Vehicles (Tanks) in action, and if you can join the 82nd Airborne Easy Company to get some real action (can you say A Target Rich environment), The rumor is that Dewayne has a real Sherman Tank he bought for this year. Hope to see many of you there.


Jason "Candyman" Imbach
Tactical Paintball Gear
Evil Inc.