Why do people shoot so much paint?

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by JEDI
That doesn't make any sense what so ever. If you dont like it than why do you concern yourself with the rules of it. Why should players that enjoy it have to abide by rules or the opinions of others that dont enjoy it.

All that has been said is that there are some that would enjoy playing limited paint games and there are some that do not like the tournament game as it is played now. Don't know why everytime a discussion about a different way of playing comes up there's always a tournament player with his knickers in a twist. You can play your game all you want. The original question was just why the current tournament games are that way.

I'm free not to attend the tournaments you enjoy. You're free not to attend a tournament that's limited paint, or stock class, or whatever.

How does that level the playing feild? Paintball is a sport where you're game is affected by the gear you own, plain and simple. My gun is different then your gun. I can afford more paint then you, (or vise versa). Whats next? Every one has to use the same gun because otherwise its unfair.

Like in car racing, there is room in Paintball for all styles of game. Open Class, no holds barred to Stock Class and limited paint. There's a lot of room between the two. There's nothing wrong with one type of marker only play either if you can put together enough people who'll play. If you don't like the rules of a limited game don't play, no one will force me to play your style of play and I won't force you to play mine. This thread wasn't about that.

Shooting a couple hundred times isnt a second chance, Its part of the game.

No you're absolutely wrong on that count. That's a part of YOUR game and the game played in the current tournament scene. For many people, it is NOT a part of their game and they'd like to limit the impact of those to whom it IS a part of their game.

I've been to several of the majors including world cup, and I've never seen any different class, limiting your paint. I'm not saying it doesnt exist, but its not main streem. If you like it, good. Play it, and stay out of the real speed ball games.

I can remeber when "speed ball" refered more to the movement of the players than the rate of fire. To each their own.

Considering the percentage of players that participate in the "majors", is that really 'main stream' or does it get more publicity than it deserves. Your statement is a little like attending nothing but F1 races and then proclaiming that F1 is "real" racing and other forms of auto racing are not.

For me, REAL Paintball(tm) was ten-player team Splatmaster and Nelspot-007 woods games. Thankfully I never played when the paint was oil-based.

In another thread an interesting question was raised. Why do companies sink so much money into the "majors" when the vast majority of players play recball and scenarios?

I still think many of you are missing the point. Speedball is not football or baseball. Rules of every one using the same bat or same ball do not apply. I have thousands of dollars in equipment. Major tournaments can cost a team hundreds of dollars. If you dont feel your equipment or budget is up to par, dont come out. Its not a matter of fair, or over shooting. Its part of the game.

You're the only one who seems to have missed the point. Nobody has asked that "YOUR" tournaments be fair. If that's the way you want to play so be it. But don't rag the rest of us who don't want to play that way and who would be interested in a different style of tournament by saying we "don't get it". Also I think a few might take offense to the suggestion that the tournament scene is 'real' while the rest is somehow inferior.

The original question in the thread was why tournament players sling so much paint. Which has been answered I think.

[Wc Keep]

i have to agree with scooter banzaimf and jedi here. if someone is shooting my bunker at 3-5 balls per second i have no fear what so ever in sticking my head out and returning fire. really anything over 5 especially in the upper realm of 9+ is what makes me stay in tight to my bunker. if i hear my bunker being hit 8 times in one second i can imagine that they are also flying pretty close to my bunker and a stray one can easily hit me.

again filling the lane is important as can be. i believe its said somewhere that in between each shot is 30 ft of space. (do a search it was said here i believe) 30 feet is a nice amount of space to dive right through and not be hit. if you are shooting 3 bps than that 30 becomes much larger and your chances of hitting that guy are very slim.

[Spaceman613]

its part of that style. I still would LOVE to see the different classses. Not to change how you play, but to add another way to play. I shoot a good amount to cover my front guys, but I also realize that speedball can be a whole new challenge with a limited supply of air or paint.

Ive seen some back guys shoot very little and be very effective (communication, and selected shots), and Ive seen back guys wsasting paint just to flutter their finger.

Unlimited paint is a fun game, but its not the ONLY game. My favorite is pump speedball. Its just different, I know most dont like it, but some do.

I would just love to see more WAYS to play the game. Maybe if some tried the different styles, they may find they dont like the "cover fire" methods as much, or maybe they will take new skills into the unlimited game.

I wont rag on the guys that shoot a case a game... if thats needed in the game. But new ways to play are always helpful to expand you skills. Heck, my semi game has helped my pump game with snap shots, and my pump game has helped my semi game with better placed shots.

now if I could only find more limited paint or pump games...

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Spaceman613
I still would LOVE to see the different classses. Not to change how you play, but to add another way to play.
...
now if I could only find more limited paint or pump games...

Well writen and well balanced.

[Havoc_online]

Originally posted by Orange Crush


If you have accuracy, volume is not necessary.

Have you ever played at a major event?

[FatMan]

I'll add that this is an argument that adds up to not understanding the game being played. If you are playing speedball with and against a team that has learned to work together, then you are faced with a number of realitys.

1) paintguns are inaccurate over the range the game is usually played in. products that improve accuracy are useful, but many don't really improve it that much.

When you shoot at a distance, the probably of hitting your target (which is usually very small) is some value. If you fire many time, the probability increases that one of your balls will hit.

2) paintballs bounce

Even if you hit your target, you might not mark it, you'd like to hit it 2 or 3 times. The more paint you send, the greater the probability that one or more balls will hit AND break.

3) paintballs are slow

It takes 2 -3 seconds for a paintball to fly across the court. Most good tourney players know how to point-shoot - which is a technique of shooting while only exposing themselves for 2 or 3 seconds. If you count in the reaction time, even if you have perfect accuracy and you know the ball will break, the likelyhood of hitting a small target appearing and disappearing from cover is very very small - you have to anticipate your target, and fire before he comes out. And a good player will not always come out at the same place.

You add all that up, and it makes sense that a back player will lay a sheet of paint at the spots on a bunker where a player might come out hoping to hit him.

4) finally, there are a bunch of guys over there who know where you are and want to shoot you.

If you are sitting in a perfect firing stance, and you are playing *good* tourney players, you will be shot out. If you want to stay alive, you have to learn how to come out just enought to fire, fire a burst, and come back in quickly enough that they can't hit you. How long a burst you can shoot depends on the field layout and how far back you are. The front guy learn to do 3-4 balls, the back guys learn to to 10-15 balls.

When you add this all together, this is where all that paint flying comes from. The name of the game then is to focus some of your players on a single target, while the rest of your players provide cover, then when you get an elimination, push a man and try to break the game open.

This is where "accuracy by volume" comes from. The overall changes of getting the guy go up if you intelligently distribute your paint - there are OTHER issues, like learning to time your bursts to you don't get caught out of cover, and learning your opponents patterns to increase the chances of catching him. I have been known to shoot several long strings from the back, and then at the end of one string suddenly slow down to 1 ball per second - the other player thinks I've pulled back in, pops out and takes one on the hopper.

As has been pointed out, these are NOT military tactics, there are not woodsball tactics, nor hunting tactics. They are speedball tactics and they WORK - that's why they're used. If you don't LIKE speedball, then I can see where this might not make sense, but that doesn't mean its wrong.

FatMan

[Miscue]

Anyone ever try playing front w/o any support?

You get DESTROYED. Front players have huge blind spots, limited mobility, gain a lot of attention from the opponents' guns, are pretty much tagged if someone is allowed a good firing angle on them... their position is the worst as far as defense goes.

Let's see... I'm gonna try to go for that sweet spot bunker up ahead since I'm sitting here doing nothing. Everyone is trying to shoot me or at least is paying close attention to me. Nobody on my team is trying to help support me because they have limited ammo. Let's go for it! Then you get your butt blasted...

Front guys cannot be consistently safe, mobile, nor effective... w/o support from the back. Keyword: Support. Heck, in the military with say a special forces group or something... people with high ROF SAW's and various anti-personnel weaponry are considered 'support.'

And, support requires a lot of ammo. If you limit ammo, you limit the amount of support possible. Limit support, you limit the effectiveness of front players. A huge part of the game is spatial advantage. The team that gains the most territory and holds the most space is at a huge advantage. Limit ammo = limit tools for obtaining spatial advantage... a huge part of the game's strategy becomes hindered.

What is a front player's incentive to go for that forward bunker if he lacks support? How do you hold down firing lanes? What's the point of a back player if he can't hold down firing lanes? We end up getting 10 dudes on a 10 man team... all playing mid-back. Of course, I'm not saying that you can't do these things at all, but you cannot do it anywhere as effectively.

Edit:
I reread what I wrote, I didn't try to make limited paint sound better or worse than unlimited. I'm all for limited paint as an option, I like the idea... variety = good. Was just trying to point out how the game changes drastically with the two options... some like it, some don't. With limited paint... "front player" "mid player" "back player" are terms that get washed out a bit... very different game altogether.

Bottom line is... unlimited paint = people will shoot a lot of paint at high ROF because it is a useful tool to gain tactical and strategic advantages... although it is only one of the many elements of the game.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Miscue
Limit ammo = limit tools for obtaining spatial advantage... a huge part of the game's strategy becomes hindered.

......
Edit:
......

With limited paint... "front player" "mid player" "back player" are terms that get washed out a bit... very different game altogether.

Bottom line is... unlimited paint = people will shoot a lot of paint at high ROF because it is a useful tool to gain tactical advantages.

You edited just as I was going to blast you. Nothing is "hindered". It's just a different game. Look at what a difference a bigger field and ball make to CFL compared to NFL. (Canadians have bigger balls! )

Yes the strategy would be much different. Personnally I'd love to see how well many of the professed pros would adapt to a new type of game.

[banzaimf]

on another note on this issue.

at 11.1 balls a second a 2 foot wide target (player hunched over and running) at a speed of 15 mph (pretty dang fast sprint speed) cannot run through the stream.

Now to go offtrack. I have played limited paint tourneys that were 2 cases for 8 games for the team. It was fun, and workable, but we were severely beating up the other teams so we didn't have to use a lot of paint. (2 games were max's in under 1 minute), which is to say, we didn't face really strong opposition that we had to put paint down to play against. When we practiced against good teams (UK Preds circa 96) the back guy (me) had to lay a lot of paint to keep them down so my guys could move.

I am not saying that you hammer at 13 a second all the time, but I need to fire at a pretty constant 5 or 6 bps to keep the other guys honest.

[Kevmaster]

there are different classes...
there are stock class tournies

there is the Pan Am which i am 95% sure limist the paint a player can carry

there are non-electro tournies


oh, and PGOG(pump gun owners group) usually sends a team to big tournies(IAO, SkyBall and WC come to mind). Guess who finishes ALWAYS in the bottom 5 teams? yep!

[Miscue]

I wrote it in a hurry, I'm at work. Of course I know that! That's obvious. I didn't word very well. What I had in mind for a hinderance... is if you were allowed unlimited ammo and you didn't make use of it while the other team did. Because it's allowed, people take advantage of it. And this answers the question as to why people shoot so much paint... it's because they can and it can be beneficial to do so.

If everyone has same rules, same limitations, then nobody is at a disadvantage. New rules = new game with new strategies and nuances. Just different is all...

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast


You edited just as I was going to blast you. Nothing is "hindered". It's just a different game. Look at what a difference a bigger field and ball make to CFL compared to NFL. (Canadians have bigger balls! )

Yes the strategy would be much different. Personnally I'd love to see how well many of the professed pros would adapt to a new type of game.

[shartley]

Originally posted by banzaimf
Because people would get into bad situations and lay on the trigger clip after clip until they burned up the barrel.

Close, but not quite.... again, before using military analogies, please learn about it first.

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
Shartley: Think you posted in the wrong thread dude. Even the sprayers in this one aren't advocating FA in Speedball. But I do agree with everything you said none-the-less. 3 BPS vs 30 BPS is IMO only a physcological battle against the opponent and a crutch by the user that could only be hurting his pocket book.

Originally posted by JEDI
Shartley, many times I've seen you attempt to disprove someones arguement by saying, "if you're gonna make an example, know what you're talking about." I mean no disrespect, and I'm not attacking you. Your post leads me to beleive you, in fact, have very little experience playing main stream tournament paintball. NO ONE brought up the full auto, and you sound rediculous arguing against it. Thats not the issue here.

I still think many of you are missing the point. Speedball is not football or baseball. Rules of every one using the same bat or same ball do not apply. I have thousands of dollars in equipment. Major tournaments can cost a team hundreds of dollars. If you dont feel your equipment or budget is up to par, dont come out. Its not a matter of fair, or over shooting. Its part of the game. If you dont like it, play on Shartley's private feild Stay away from Sky Ball or World Cup, because its not for you.

[banzaimf]

Originally posted by shartley

Close, but not quite.... again, before using military analogies, please learn about it first.

Then please, enlighten us instead of merely telling me I'm wrong.




(edit) forgot the smiley that automatically means I am not being combative in my statements

[shartley]

Originally posted by banzaimf
Then please, enlighten us instead of merely telling me I'm wrong.



(edit) forgot the smiley that automatically means I am not being combative in my statements

[banzaimf]

Suppression fire can be had with anything that keeps the other guys head down, and the ROF game is a natural extension in my mind. skipping 3 off the bunker and 3 right past the bunker usually will work to keep the other guy pinned. This is the objective as a back player (imo). I RARELY get tags when I play back, my goal is to get 3 assists per 10 man game. 3 times that guys get tagged while cowering away from me or while working on trying to get me. Either way, I want their attention on me as my fronts do the dirty work. what can I say, I am too fat and old for that running crap anymore