Proof that an autococker shoots further?

[halB]

strongboy, stop, your emberassing yourself. your whole "a ball thats accellerated slower will decelerate slower is bull doody. lets look at it this way


car A accelerates at 5 m/s^2 car B accelerates at 10 m/s^2. car A and car B hit a brick wall at the same time (because they started from different distances) which one will stop sooner??

the answer is both will stop at the same time, as they go into the brick wall. plop. it doesnt matter in what way the ball was accelerated, once it reaches 300 fps, and then is released from its main power source gravity, wind, everything will effect the same as if it was accelerated over a million miles or over 1 inch. it doesnt matter how the ball was accelerated. also, lets assume that its accelerated differently.

oh, no wait lets not, its still fired from the gun with the bolt in a closed position with a burst of air behind it, pressure relative to the guns parts, just like a spyder, pump, tippy, and your gramma.

lemme also demonstrate this to you

take cocker A
take spyder B
take futuristic loader
fire at 40 bps (the max a spyder can cycle)

both cocker A and spyder B are firing int he exact same position, with the exact same pattern. one just starts from a different place. if you would look at the bolt of each move and load the paintball gun, then you would not be able to tell teh difference.


so once again strongboy, i ask that you please stop, there are many of us here who make our livings in aerodynamics, or are well versed in it.

[joeyjoe367]

..it's not a 'cocker vs. mag debate.

it's a "someone knows their physics" and "someone doesn't" debate.

I'm going to stop now, cuz this is getting silly.

[strongboy2005]

Originally posted by spantol
Okay, so when the ball leaves the barrel, it loses some of the decelerating influences (the barrel friction, essentially)? And you're positing that this translates into an increase in acceleration?

I would offer that while the first part of that may hold, the ball also loses its accelerating force when it leaves the barrel. Any decelerating forces are now acting on an object with an acceleration of zero. This would result in deceleration out of the barrel, rather than acceleration, which seems to be what most of us have observed.

no, once the ball begins to decellerate the only way to accelerate it is to apply more force. Less friction will cause the ball to decellerate slower, increasing the distance of the ball. that is the basic argument. As for the acceleration of the ball, who knows? It may stop accellerating before it leaves the barrel. who's to say that the ball doesn't go from 0 to 320 to 300 in the length of the barrel. With direct friction I wouldn't be suprised. But if a mag hits it from 0 to 380 to 300 then wouldn't it be decellerating the ball more quickly? Ultimately the ball from the mag would drop off in distance as the ball decellerated to 0.

[agdemagman69]

Theres no need to be an ***

not once in that sentence did i say that mags were better. I was simply pointing out a possible reason why people think that cockers shoot farther.

I came in a little late and my post was a bit more directed towards the begining of this thread

and im not very fluent in physics, i'm in honors chemistry this year, and i dont have physics till next year.

but i have understood everything so far...

[AcemanPB]

So according to this theory a longer barrel has more range because the ball accelerates longer?

BTW excelent example with the cars halb

[strongboy2005]

Originally posted by halB
car A accelerates at 5 m/s^2 car B accelerates at 10 m/s^2. car A and car B hit a brick wall at the same time (because they started from different distances) which one will stop sooner??

the answer is both will stop at the same time, as they go into the brick wall. plop. it doesnt matter in what way the ball was accelerated, once it reaches 300 fps, and then is released from its main power source gravity, wind, everything will effect the same as if it was accelerated over a million miles or over 1 inch. it doesnt matter how the ball was accelerated.

interesting. so let's apply this bit of information to the argument. let's say for the sake of the speeds that car A is the cocker (that, in this theory, accelertates slower) and car B is the mag. we have already touched on the differences between barrel friction and atmospheric friction. the only time gravity comes into play is when the ball is in the barrel, so we'll take these cars and put them in a tunnel that scrapes on them (a little over exaggerated, but you get the idea.) Then floor it, all the while sparks are flying and we'll say that the mag is just cooking and it reaches its maximum velocity 1/4 of the way down the tunnel and when the car tops out they let go of the accelerator. The car barely makes it out of the end of the tunnel and travels about 20 more feet. Then the cocker starts and floors it. It doesn't reach its maximum velocity until half way down the barrel, and then continues through. The cocker will decellerate slower and travel furthur when it reaches the end of the tunnel.

[spantol]

Once the ball leaves the barrel, any deceleratory forces acting on the paintball are going to be identical whether it be a ball fired from a mag or a cocker. Once either the ball has cleared the barrel, acceleration on that ball drops to zero, as there is no longer a force acting in the direction of the ball's motion. Given this, we would seem to be in a situation where all factors are equal.

It should be noted that the ball does not "decelerate" until that force of motion ceases. I think that this is causing some confusion. In the barrel, acceleratory and deceleratory forces act on the ball, but the net result is a positive acceleration.

Originally posted by strongboy2005

no, once the ball begins to decellerate the only way to accelerate it is to apply more force. Less friction will cause the ball to decellerate slower, increasing the distance of the ball. that is the basic argument. As for the acceleration of the ball, who knows? It may stop accellerating before it leaves the barrel. who's to say that the ball doesn't go from 0 to 320 to 300 in the length of the barrel. With direct friction I wouldn't be suprised. But if a mag hits it from 0 to 380 to 300 then wouldn't it be decellerating the ball more quickly? Ultimately the ball from the mag would drop off in distance as the ball decellerated to 0.

[spantol]

Okay, I think I see the disconnect. Acceleration is not velocity. When the balls exit the barrel, acceleration is zero--it has to be, there is no longer a force behind the ball--and velocity is, say, 300 fps. Once outside of the barrel, deceleratory forces act on the ball, decreasing that velocity.

Originally posted by strongboy2005

interesting. so let's apply this bit of information to the argument. let's say for the sake of the speeds that car A is the cocker (that, in this theory, accelertates slower) and car B is the mag. we have already touched on the differences between barrel friction and atmospheric friction. the only time gravity comes into play is when the ball is in the barrel, so we'll take these cars and put them in a tunnel that scrapes on them (a little over exaggerated, but you get the idea.) Then floor it, all the while sparks are flying and we'll say that the mag is just cooking and it reaches its maximum velocity 1/4 of the way down the tunnel and when the car tops out they let go of the accelerator. The car barely makes it out of the end of the tunnel and travels about 20 more feet. Then the cocker starts and floors it. It doesn't reach its maximum velocity until half way down the barrel, and then continues through. The cocker will decellerate slower and travel furthur when it reaches the end of the tunnel.

[strongboy2005]

Originally posted by AcemanPB
So according to this theory a longer barrel has more range because the ball accelerates longer?

BTW excelent example with the cars halb

barrel length is a factor, but if you have a longer barrel the pressure of the gun is increased and the ball will, fractionally, accelerate the same.

[strongboy2005]

Originally posted by spantol
Once the ball leaves the barrel, any deceleratory forces acting on the paintball are going to be identical whether it be a ball fired from a mag or a cocker. Once either the ball has cleared the barrel, acceleration on that ball drops to zero, as there is no longer a force acting in the direction of the ball's motion. Given this, we would seem to be in a situation where all factors are equal.

It should be noted that the ball does not "decelerate" until that force of motion ceases. I think that this is causing some confusion. In the barrel, acceleratory and deceleratory forces act on the ball, but the net result is a positive acceleration.

again, this is circumstantial. if I stand right on a chono and fire will it fire faster or slower than if I fire from 5 feet away? I'm saying (I know it may be kind of out there) that the ball would accelerate, falling back on my original argument even though my argument has already begun to change with what i've been saying with you guys. I do not see why a ball could not continue to accelerate. If the conditions outside the barrel has less friction then what is stopping it. Sure, it won't accelerate as fast, because the atmospheric pressure behind the ball will begin to dispell, but for a few fractions of a second the ball still has the acceleratory forces that it contained in the barrel, outside of the barrel the conditions change. There is less force behind the ball, but there is also less friction. But for a fraction of a second you get the best of both worlds. You have the air blast pushing you and hardly any friction, giving you a slight little boost.

[Cypres0099]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by strongboy2005

interesting. so let's apply this bit of information to the argument. let's say for the sake of the speeds that car A is the cocker (that, in this theory, accelertates slower) and car B is the mag. we have already touched on the differences between barrel friction and atmospheric friction. the only time gravity comes into play is when the ball is in the barrel, so we'll take these cars and put them in a tunnel that scrapes on them (a little over exaggerated, but you get the idea.) Then floor it, all the while sparks are flying and we'll say that the mag is just cooking and it reaches its maximum velocity 1/4 of the way down the tunnel and when the car tops out they let go of the accelerator. The car barely makes it out of the end of the tunnel and travels about 20 more feet. Then the cocker starts and floors it. It doesn't reach its maximum velocity until half way down the barrel, and then continues through. The cocker will decellerate slower and travel furthur when it reaches the end of the tunnel.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


But the idea of a chrono is to have each "car" at the same speed when it exits the "tunnel"

There is no acceleration after the force (air blast) is taken away so without any spin on the paintball there won't be any change in distance.

[Army]

I should close this thread, as I don't have a hammer with a handle long enough to beat some sense into people.

Deceleration forces are EQUAL. You can't put two different barrels into the equation if you are doing a comparison.

OK kids, last time, listen up: Both guns have 12" barrels. Both guns have perfect paint to barrel match. Both guns are running Flatlines at 850psi input (shameless corporate spam). Both tank are full. Both guns have been chrono'ed at 300fps, 4' from the muzzle (standard for radar bench type chronographs). There is NOTHING the gun can influence at this point. There is NOTHING the gas can influence at this point. NO FRICTION in the barrels will effect the balls once they are out of the barrels and have been chrono'ed. There is NOTHING the magic elves can influence at this point. Deceleration is EQUAL on both balls. Atmospheric pressure is EQUAL on both balls. Atmospheric resistence is EQUAL on both balls. The ONLY THING that can influence forward speed is atmospheric resistence, and this is immediately after the firing pressure can no longer accelerate the ball after 10" of barrel, and is constant inside the barrel and out. Gravity is a constant and will drag the balls to Earth at the exact same time and speed.

Whatever you have read or heard otherwise is WRONG and/or a lie. Let this ignorance end now:)

[spantol]

The ball just can't suddenly start moving faster--something must actively give it a push to do so. A reduction in deceleratory forces does not translate into an increase in acceleratory forces. Once the ball has left the barrel, no force is behind it, which means no acceleration. All that can happen to the ball from this point on is deceleration, to varying degrees.

If I'm pushing you back, and then ease up, have you moved forward?

Originally posted by strongboy2005

again, this is circumstantial. if I stand right on a chono and fire will it fire faster or slower than if I fire from 5 feet away? I'm saying (I know it may be kind of out there) that the ball would accelerate, falling back on my original argument even though my argument has already begun to change with what i've been saying with you guys. I do not see why a ball could not continue to accelerate. If the conditions outside the barrel has less friction then what is stopping it. Sure, it won't accelerate as fast, because the atmospheric pressure behind the ball will begin to dispell, but for a few fractions of a second the ball still has the acceleratory forces that it contained in the barrel, outside of the barrel the conditions change. There is less force behind the ball, but there is also less friction. But for a fraction of a second you get the best of both worlds. You have the air blast pushing you and hardly any friction, giving you a slight little boost.

[strongboy2005]

Originally posted by Cypres0099
But the idea of a chrono is to have each "car" at the same speed when it exits the "tunnel"

There is no acceleration after the force (air blast) is taken away so without any spin on the paintball there won't be any change in velocity.

But the decelleration is slower with the cocker. speed and acceleration are two different things. take plane A that is traveling at 400 MPH and plane B which is traveling at 400 MPH, now have both planes turn off their engines and see which one crashes first. Now let's say when this "snapshot" of the two speeds was taken that plane A was dropping in its speed from 800 MPH to 0 MPH in 5 seconds, and plane B was accelerating from 300 MPH to 600 MPH. When each plane is looked at it appears that the two planes, when their engines turn off, will decellerate at the same rate, when in fact plane A would continue in it's plummit of speed and plane B would continue to accelerate.

[speeddemon]

I have to agree with Army. This thread is getting absolutely rediculous. The only force that matters on a ball after it leaves the barrel is air resisitance, which is going to be the same on every ball from every gun.

Have any of you acutally taken college level physics (those of you that think one gun can shoot further)?