Jeremy Salms

[cphilip]

Originally posted by hitech
I'm still amazed that it happened.

I got no idea either what would even bring someone to even consider doing it let alone do all the efforts to follow through and do it. I mean it just makes me have to question his whole basic morals which are not subject to change. Something like that is hard to explain away as a simple lapse of judgement.

[soaklord]

I don't understand the surprise and shock. Watch any tournament and you will see players playing through hits, which happens to be cheating. Cheating is cheating, the problem is that paintball has allowed it to take place on the field for too long, so now people are finding more innovative ways of cheating. Jeremy's actions are indicative of why paintball is having so many problems despite being mainstream. And it is mainstream, more people played paintball last year than any other extreme sport excepting rollerblading and snowboarding. Number three with over eighteen million people having played and it can't get onto television, wonder why? Because ethical standards need not be present in sports that only have one player at a time. Until paintball holds its own accountable, every day, every time, there is not going to be any respectability. For example, Avalanche got kicked out of one tournament, for cheating. What if every intentional wiper had his team kicked out of a tournament? Every player who played through a shot? When the "best" of the sport have no conscience, the sport has no conscience. Until we enforce that...

[hitech]

Originally posted by soaklord
Watch any tournament and you will see players playing through hits, which happens to be cheating. Cheating is cheating, the problem is that paintball has allowed it to take place on the field for too long...

Actually, that has surprised me also. I still find it amazing that we have gone BACKWARDS where playing on is concerned. The last tournament I played in if you played on with a hit, WITH OR WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO "SEE" IT, you were penalized. YOU, the player, were responsible for calling yourself out, PERIOD. If you weren't sure it broke, it was up to YOU to find out. And you were NOT allowed to continue to play until you determined it.

I've heard many people complain that you sometimes can't feel it when you are hit. Honestly, when was the last time you will hit and didn't have ANY idea? I think the very few times it actually happens is FAR less that the number of times a tournament player plays on after knowing a paintball has hit them.

Okay, I'll get off my soap box now.

[cphilip]

I agree its time to clean it all up for the good of the sport.

An obvious hit is well defined in the NPPL rules and its up to the player and his teamates to determine if its an elimination. Thats the rule. Its time to get back to the basics and quit blaming refs and making them have to catch you. Pentalties need to be severe enough that its not worth chancing doing it.

[soaklord]

Definitely! If a player knew that playing through a hit meant that any eliminations he got after the hit were allowed back into the game and for every elimination, the cheating players team lost a player, how many would take that chance?

[rpm07]

lets end this he is a a** that puts a bad name in the sport the less we talk about it the better.

[thecavemankevin]

i do like the idea that if a player is caught wipeing the entire team is yanked.

However, i personally feel that if you are shot and it is not obvious to you (whether it is on your back,pack, or whatever) that it is the refs responsability to pull you. Just like in football (if you are running the line and step out of bounds it is the refs responsability.

Now is that completely honest....yes. If you don't know and can't tell then thats what the refs there for. Now if you can and do not that it is a break...then absolutely you should call yourself or paintcheck at the very least.

[hitech]

Originally posted by thecavemankevin
However, i personally feel that if you are shot and it is not obvious to you (whether it is on your back, pack, or whatever) that it is the refs responsability to pull you.

I disagree.

[Soap Box)
You KNOW that you were hit. You can FEEL it. The only thing you are not sure anout is whether is broke or not. It should be YOUR responsibility to find out. If you continue to play and are marked you are penalized. Playing on will go WAY down if it is done this way.
[/Soap Box]

[shartley]

Originally posted by hitech

I disagree.

[Soap Box)
You KNOW that you were hit. You can FEEL it. The only thing you are not sure anout is whether is broke or not. It should be YOUR responsibility to find out. If you continue to play and are marked you are penalized. Playing on will go WAY down if it is done this way.
[/Soap Box]

[kicking over his own box and stepping up]
I agree!
[/losing balance and stumbling off]

[cphilip]

Actualy the rule on "Non Obvious" hits is there in the NPPL rules for the reason that you do not know you are hit. If you are hit on the pack or even the very front of the hopper you may not feel it at all. You will be called out but it will not result in a penalty. If you feel it then it is an obvious hit and you must verify. If you define the hit as one you can feel its an "obvious hit" under the NPPL definitions. It dose not mean you can see it. But if you feel it you are supposed to get a check from a ref or a team mate WITHOUT continuing play. You may stop firing and take cover is all you can do until you are cleared. many think they can keep playing as normal but you are risking a pentaly. And should be! So you both realy agree.

I have seen Non obvious hits on folds of packs the player could not have felt at all. So the call was your out but no penalty. Teamates and Refs are responsible for Non obvious hits. You cannot realy be as you didn't know it. But your out!

I saw a guy once come out of the side of his bunker and immediately shake the sting off his hand and then glance at it, yelled paint check but they he ups and goes right back to shooting! While he is yelling paint check! The Ref was running to him at that point of course. Soon as the ref got close enough to see the paint he was out and the ref was looking up field to see if anyone had been hit on the other team and looking for a man close on his team to pull. He was pissed at the penatly. But thats the rule and the Ref was doing what he should have done. Its just a matter of enforcement.

[hitech]

Originally posted by cphilip
Actualy the rule on "Non Obvious" hits is there in the NPPL rules for the reason that you do not know you are hit. If you are hit on the pack or even the very front of the hopper you may not feel it at all.

Honestly, when was the last time this happened to YOU? It happens, but it is VERY infrequently. What happens far more often is someone is hit and CLAIMS that they did not know. Making the player responsible for ALL hits takes the guess work and subjectivity out of it. Play one with a hit and you are penalized.

That said, you could have a lesser penality for "Non Obvious" hits. That's how is use to be. It seemed to be working.

[hitech]

Originally posted by cphilip
Its just a matter of enforcement.

Yes, inforcement is a BIG problem. However, I think taking more of the subjectivity out of it would make inforcement easier. It's a penality, you can just argue the amount of "punishment".

[cphilip]

Twice it happened in the last three man that I reffed. One on the back of a pod in a pack and once on the very front of a guys hopper.

In addition that same day we paint checked after a flag hang and found paint on the front of the pants of a young lady. She then told us she had tripped on the break and shot herself in the leg. But she didn't think it had broken. She was declaired out but no penalty was assessed but could have been. She should have made her bunker and called a check. She did not. It was a relaxed torney and so we were not as harsh as we could have been and it taught her a lesson. But normally they would not have been so lucky. Thats an example of a mental mistake on a self inflicted obvious hit that leads to a penalty. Or could and should

Once I played on with a non obvious hit myself. I was shot right down the barrel! I had no idea! I though for some reason I was chopping or something.

it happens more than you would think.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by hitech

Yes, inforcement is a BIG problem. However, I think taking more of the subjectivity out of it would make inforcement easier. It's a penality, you can just argue the amount of "punishment".

I agree that non obvious hits are less frequent. Perhaps the solution is more Two for ones rather than one for ones in real blatant cases. Or even three for ones!

[hitech]

Originally posted by cphilip
Twice it happened in the last three man that I reffed. One on the back of a pod in a pack and once on the very front of a guys hopper.

These hits were on someone else. You can only ASSUME that they did not have ANY idea they were hit. I'm willing to bet that is not the case. The one with the hit on very front of the hopper probably knew something hit it. He just didn't know if it broke. In that case, you should NOT be allowed to play on until you know if it broke. It's also likely the hit on the pack was the same. He knew something hit him, just didn't know if it broke.

Once I played on with a non obvious hit myself. I was shot right down the barrel! I had no idea! I though for some reason I was chopping or something.

I think we can all agree that doesn't happen very often!

Funny though, it has happened to me also (kinda).

It happens more than you would think.

I don't think so. I think it happens VERY infrequently. I think that players know a paintball made contact with them. They just don't know if it broke.