Im Confused!!!! Bounce vs. reactivity

[a_malfunction]

There are new rules concerning trigger bounce in the major tournament circuits... These rules ban trigger bounce. Which by the way are unneccessary rules... the one shot per trigger pull rules that have been in effect since the shocker turbos are also dealing with bounce... I dont see why they came up with a new rule.

Anyway, I always thought that trigger bounce was the "turbo effect", Where the gun fired for each of the small electrical noise events when the switch was depressed. Why are people saying that the emag/rt are no longer tourney legal due to their bounce. They arent bouncing... arent trigger bounce and reactivity differnt things?

[Riddler236]

Trigger bounce is an effect that generates more than one shot from the gun when the trigger is intentionally depressed once. It's usually caused by holding an electro lightly and firing it - the small amount of recoil from the gun's operation will cause the trigger to bump up against your fingers and shoot itself repeatedly. Angels, Intimidators, Impulses and E-cockers are notorious for it.

Reactivity is a 'mag feature that makes the trigger return quickly.

At this point, reactivity is tournament legal as long as it does not induce trigger bounce and extra shots. In the mag world, we would call this 'runaway mode.' NPPL is supposedly discussing whether or not to ban reactive triggers. If they do, Tom Kaye can make and sell a different on/off pin that will eliminate reactivity.

[cphilip]

Re: Im Confused!!!! Bounce vs. reactivity

Originally posted by a_malfunction
There are new rules concerning trigger bounce in the major tournament circuits... These rules ban trigger bounce. Which by the way are unneccessary rules... the one shot per trigger pull rules that have been in effect since the shocker turbos are also dealing with bounce... I dont see why they came up with a new rule.

Anyway, I always thought that trigger bounce was the "turbo effect", Where the gun fired for each of the small electrical noise events when the switch was depressed. Why are people saying that the emag/rt are no longer tourney legal due to their bounce. They arent bouncing... arent trigger bounce and reactivity differnt things?

There is no "new" rule. Same rule as always... just recently there has been enforcment of a different cause for violation of it. One shot = one pull. Same rule as always.

[Lesman]

Hey guys,

I am confused! I am getting ready to play my first tournament (3 man rookie) and now I am worried that my RT Pro is not going to be legal. I run a 800 psi preset on my gun so it is pretty reactive but I don't have a problem with run on. What can I do to ensure my marker is tournie legal.

[BajaBoy]

Originally posted by Lesman
Hey guys,

I am confused! I am getting ready to play my first tournament (3 man rookie) and now I am worried that my RT Pro is not going to be legal. I run a 800 psi preset on my gun so it is pretty reactive but I don't have a problem with run on. What can I do to ensure my marker is tournie legal.

you will be fine, just dont bounce your trigger.

[845]

Shhh dont tell anybody this but they probably wont notice if you do add a little itty bit of bounce at a local tourny. I know i am probably gonna get hell for this. Oh and bounce is when u set your trigger so light on the micro switch that just the kick of the gun and the slight force of your finger will set it on full auto. I have seen guns that r so bouncy u dont even have to pull the trigger after 2 shots. As long as you keep the reactivity down you should not have any problems with bounce.

[Mobius V]

So this bounce this is really only an issue for the really big tourneys like nppl or psp or whatever there called? Do you guys think it will be an issue in the future at local tourneys?

[kilaueakid]

I got harassed by x-ball refs at the chicago psp event last weekend. Needless to say I WAS NOT happy. I was told to fix my emag. I just don't see how they can say my hybrid mode was any worse than a timmy sweeting spotting on bounce at 16-18 bps. I ended up just flipping it to emode and left it there the rest of the time. There are some reffs that pull the trigger so slow and lightly that they are bound to find a point in the pull that there is either more reactivity or bounce, depending on the marker.

Bill Crookston was there and I saw him check a few guns and that guy does it the right way, with one normal pull. None of this barely pulling the trigger stuff. Anyway....sorry for the rant.

kila

[shartley]

Originally posted by kilaueakid
I got harassed by x-ball refs at the chicago psp event last weekend. Needless to say I WAS NOT happy. I was told to fix my emag. I just don't see how they can say my hybrid mode was any worse than a timmy sweeting spotting on bounce at 16-18 bps. I ended up just flipping it to emode and left it there the rest of the time. There are some reffs that pull the trigger so slow and lightly that they are bound to find a point in the pull that there is either more reactivity or bounce, depending on the marker.

Bill Crookston was there and I saw him check a few guns and that guy does it the right way, with one normal pull. None of this barely pulling the trigger stuff. Anyway....sorry for the rant.

kila

[cgrieves]

At the last tourney I played at I had my Hyperframed mag pulled for trigger bounce. The chrono judge was pulling the trigger over a twenty second period and managing to get two shots out. Now as you say that's no advantage in a game, but we really need to establish some sort of consistency in the tests for bounce. On the other three fields neither I nor the judges had any problems with bounce for the rest of the day.

It seems to me that a microswitch has a very defined, infinitely small firing point, and a marker firing a paintball has a very defined recoil effect. It seems to me that any marker with a microswitch can be induced to bounce if you try hard enough.

[billmi]

Originally posted by Mobius V
So this bounce this is really only an issue for the really big tourneys like nppl or psp or whatever there called? Do you guys think it will be an issue in the future at local tourneys?

No, it's an issue anywhere it violates the rules (most tourneys) he's just suggesting that you should cheat by using it at smaller tourneys because you will be less likely to be caught.

I disagree with his suggestion.

As to trigger bounce, the same word has been used for different meantings.

It was first used by Smart Parts to describe the bounce of the electronic signal generated by the trigger switch. It sort of stutters on, then stutters off. This is a common feature of electrical switches. "Turbo Mode" counted some of these stutters as individual trigger pulls and acted on them, even though they did have some movement as their origin (thus SP argued they were valid trigger pulls) that movement was so small that it is not part of the "trigger pull" felt by the user - thus leading to the controversy (which was ultimately about the semantics of the rules, and could have been solved by a simple rule change but got derailed into issues of cheating and trigger design.)

Often trigger bounce is now used to refer to larger scale bouncing (back and forth movement) of the trigger caused by a combination of pressure from the user's finger and "recoil" of the gun and or a reactive trigger system. Both the NPPL and PSP loosely define a runaway trigger as one where the user can put pressure on the trigger and fire multiple shots, rather than making individual, conciously defined trigger pulls. It is a very subjective judgement made by the ultimate judge at the tournament. Most tournaments follow the same guidelines.

In order to avoid confusion, I recommend using the term switch bounce for what Smart Parts originally referred to as trigger bounce.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

Originally posted by shartley

I disagree.

I believe that the judge should use any method that a player is capable of using on the field when testing a paintgun (that means anything short of using tools.)

Just because it may be inconvenient to make a gun shoot illegally doesn't mean a player won't do it.

If the player on the other team had a gun that could shoot 300 fps when fired normally, but shot 400 fps when the trigger was pulled unusually slow, would you want the refs to leave that on the field?

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[MarkM]

Originally posted by billmi


I disagree.

I believe that the judge should use any method that a player is capable of using on the field when testing a paintgun (that means anything short of using tools.)

Just because it may be inconvenient to make a gun shoot illegally doesn't mean a player won't do it.

If the player on the other team had a gun that could shoot 300 fps when fired normally, but shot 400 fps when the trigger was pulled unusually slow, would you want the refs to leave that on the field?

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

Well put Bill, if the judge can do it then so can you...remember that the judge has your marker in their hands for a fraction of the time you do and "you" will know how much pressure you need to put on "your" trigger to get it to fire more than one ball per pull. He has to search for that point as easily as he can and if that means a slow pull then so be it. Are there no times in a game where you are sitting there waiting for a player to come out from his/her barricade and you aren't firing? This complaining about bounce/runaway will continue after every tournament regardless of the letters the tournament is run under as players constantly want an "edge" and feel aggrieved when that "edge" is taken away from them. There are differring approaches to check for bounce and indeed for hot markers too, to standardise these checks in theory sounds good but in reality they need to be expanded to check all ways, this in turn will mean longer at the chrono station but then if teams actually turned up to have their markers checked on time this would not mean any schedule overruns. The one thing that I personally am unhappy to see removed from the chrono procedure is the now almost uniform adoption of the non-checking after a game, but to be fair to this thread that is another issue.

[shartley]

Originally posted by billmi
I disagree.

I believe that the judge should use any method that a player is capable of using on the field when testing a paintgun (that means anything short of using tools.)

Just because it may be inconvenient to make a gun shoot illegally doesn't mean a player won't do it.

If the player on the other team had a gun that could shoot 300 fps when fired normally, but shot 400 fps when the trigger was pulled unusually slow, would you want the refs to leave that on the field?

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[Phil]

I really don't see the point of all of this. With the paintball arms race producing markers of increasing BPS capability does it really matter if those 16 balls flying at your bunker were produced by 16 trigger pulls or 1 trigger pull? The net result is identical in both cases. There are 16 freaking balls flying at your bunker in one second! I have heard safety used as the excuse for banning fire modes. How does requiring someone to move their finger really fast magically make things safer on the paintball field? The fastest trigger puller can probably hit 16-17 bps and with the new loaders you could hit ~20 bps on full auto. Do those 4 extra balls make a difference in safety? It seems to me that the way to go would be a BPS cap (which I know is not a new idea).