Im Confused!!!! Bounce vs. reactivity

[shartley]

Originally posted by Phil
I really don't see the point of all of this. With the paintball arms race producing markers of increasing BPS capability does it really matter if those 16 balls flying at your bunker were produced by 16 trigger pulls or 1 trigger pull? The net result is identical in both cases. There are 16 freaking balls flying at your bunker in one second! I have heard safety used as the excuse for banning fire modes. How does requiring someone to move their finger really fast magically make things safer on the paintball field? The fastest trigger puller can probably hit 16-17 bps and with the new loaders you could hit ~20 bps on full auto. Do those 4 extra balls make a difference in safety? It seems to me that the way to go would be a BPS cap (which I know is not a new idea).

[Big'n slo]

SOLUTION = Pump only tourneys?

Just like the lottery, it only takes one.

[Phil]

There is not doubt about it that speedball takes alot of skill. I just recently started playing speedball (all of my friends play woods ball and refuse to change) and there is really alot of strategy to learn (when and where to shoot, when and where to move, communication etc...). I don't play in tourneys but I do play with good people who play in tourneys. I have noticed that there is a big reliance on the ability to put a butt-load of paint down field. I know what your thinking (the gun doesn't make the player) but the fact is that that person with a tippmann shooting 5 bps is infinitely handicapped when facing off against someone with a timmy shooting 15 bps. If both have equal playing ability then it comes down to the fact that one guy is throwing 15 balls and the other 5, both shooting for that one or two second window when the other guy is poking out firing. If they are both reasonably good shots then probability is on the side of the timmy. In the scope of this example it is not an issue of skill but rather BPS. The nature of the game has created the customer need for higher and higher BPS and the marker companies are just filling that demand. In my opinion it would make for a better game if the markers were capped at around 9 or 10 bps.

[Mag Master 04]

errrr

im very discouraged now cuz sometimes i cant stop my mag from "running away" i dont know what to do, ill be ripping on it then it will just "bounce" itself outta my control, other times ill just be chillin layin 1 or 2 shots at a time and it will just "bounce" away, i dont want this to happen in a tourney and get kicked out, whats this aftermarket on/off that is being made and how much will it cost
discouraged mag master 04

[lamby]

Re: errrr

Originally posted by Mag Master 04
whats this aftermarket on/off that is being made and how much will it cost
discouraged mag master 04

Dude, you are screwed unless you get an adjustable output tank. the "aftermarket" on/off assy is not out yet so you can not get one. If you run your RT at about 650 PSI with a LX and 550 with a L7 that will drop your reactivity greatly (won't prevent it totaly, but it will be ALOT harder to achieve)

This looks my last thread

[Mag Master 04]

well

when will this new on/off be released? and what would happen if i threw the classic assy in there like took out the whole rt on/off?

[logamus]

phil i totally agree with you. for years people have chanted that the gun doesnt matter, but i can assure you it does. you all have to ask yourselves, if you were playing rec ball and there were to people left. neither of them had played a minute of paintball in their lives. one has an emag, the other has a rental classic mag. which one do you pick? if you go by the theory that the gun doesnt matter then you can flip a coin and be happy regardless, but i feel pretty certain that 98% of us would take the noob with the emag. im not saying that skill has no place, as it certainly does, but too often the gun is overlooked as a part of the whole package.

as far as reducing bps, the only real way to do it consistantly is to outlaw forcefed loaders. if everything is gravity fed then it wont matter much if your bouncing the trigger.

[trains are bad]

All judges and refs should use a NORMAL to moderate speed trigger pulls when testing the markers.

it's a very subjective judgement

This is why we should go to F/A with a cap. Semi-only was a rule to limit ROF. It does not limit ROF anymore. And these markers are less safe. F/A, baby, cap wherever you wish. Paintball doesn't have the guts to do it though.

[tonybhall]

OK, I'll be different!

I disagree with Billmi when he says,

"I believe that the judge should use any method that a player is capable of using on the field when testing a paintgun (that means anything short of using tools.)

Just because it may be inconvenient to make a gun shoot illegally doesn't mean a player won't do it."

Here is my $.02 on this.

While I agree that since I play with my marker more than anyone that I can make it work better than a ref who only has a few seconds with it, that still does not change the fact that if it is so hard to make my marker bounce that it is of NO use in a game situation. If it is inconvenient enough, a player will not do it.

I would agree that a Ref should be able to slow the trigger pull down some to test, but I have seen refs go to the extreme on this and get a marker to bounce one time and pull it out of a game.

My RT Pro with ULT will bounce one time if I pull the trigger painfully slow. There is absolutly no reason that it should be pulled from a game, because to make it bounce actually lowers my ROF due to the amount of effort it takes and the fact that it will only do it once. So, when my gun bounces, I end up with a rate of fire (over the entire trigger pull) of about half a BPS. But, based on Bill's statement, my gun sould be pulled even though the "violaton" of the rules would actually be a handicap for me as a player. At some point there has to be some common since injected into this.

Bryan

P.S. I love you site Bill.

[FutureMagOwner]

well if your having problems with mech in mag just tighten the rear thumb screw with a wrench i was getting crazy sweet spotting (still in control) at definantly past 18 bps then i tightened it down to where i can only get like 4 balls off at most very slowly. EDIT: yeah i know that is bad still but its a HUGE improvement as you can tell :) although i never shoot like that anyway even when i do use mech.

[ZAust]

Originally posted by Y-Grip


Does this mean that there are shorter on/off pins to INCREASE reactivity? I want one that will make my trigger bounce off my finger like Z-Man can do.

you can grind down your on/off pin, but that is extremely stupid and voids your warranty with agd. wanna shoot like zak does? get a maxflo.

[Dayspring]

Actually, you increased the distance it travels in order to seal in the oring. Much like the ULT does.

Originally posted by Y-Grip
Actually I just tried something different. Instead of shortening the on/off pin I just placed one level 10 shim under my on/off assembly in my ReTro Valve. It seems to shoot a lot better. (Ghetto ULT mod) I think that small rise i created in the on/off assembly helps the gun fire a little quicker. Can someone do the thinking for me and tell me if the height of the on/off affects the reactivity? If you know what i mean. I didn't shorten the on/off pin I just kinda shortened the distance it has to travel to fire the gun. Anyone try this before? If not, try it and tell me what you think.

[Lohman446]

Re: OK, I'll be different!

Originally posted by tonybhall

I would agree that a Ref should be able to slow the trigger pull down some to test, but I have seen refs go to the extreme on this and get a marker to bounce one time and pull it out of a game.

My RT Pro with ULT will bounce one time if I pull the trigger painfully slow. There is absolutly no reason that it should be pulled from a game, because to make it bounce actually lowers my ROF due to the amount of effort it takes and the fact that it will only do it once. So, when my gun bounces, I end up with a rate of fire (over the entire trigger pull) of about half a BPS. But, based on Bill's statement, my gun sould be pulled even though the "violaton" of the rules would actually be a handicap for me as a player. At some point there has to be some common since injected into this.

I have to agree, there is bounce, and there is bounce. The one example up further, where over 20 seconds the ref could coax out two balls... who cares. If over 20 seconds he found a spot that truly bounced - and we all know what I mean by that - extended strings at high ROF - its another story. But two shots over 20 seconds is not a violation of the idea of the rule, even though it is a technical violation. We need to get the idea of the rule understood, the idea is to disallow markers with artificially high ROF - not the occassional "burp" that any electro-mechanical device might have.

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by Phil
I really don't see the point of all of this. With the paintball arms race producing markers of increasing BPS capability does it really matter if those 16 balls flying at your bunker were produced by 16 trigger pulls or 1 trigger pull?

Yes. When you go to bunker someone (or get bunkered by someone) do you want them to put one ball into you each time they pull the trigger, or 3-4 each trigger pull. Do you want them to be able to sweetspot and go pretty much full auto all over your back?

[SlartyBartFast]

To test, a solidly defined and realistic test procedure needs to be implemented and followed. Even better, a test rig should be built that could perform the whole chrono procedure.

As far as safety or multiple shots, clearly define and enforce overshooting rules.

Two or three breaks (or more) after a bunkering move? Both are out.

Even better, have the refs be more proactive and call players out when they are bunkered if they see balls bounce. The game should be about the skill of the players, not how padded the recipient is or how brittle the paint is.