American Airlines has my tank

[cphilip]

Well your wrong to look to DOT. They defer to IATA now. On air transport. DOT and IATA regs are what I do at Clemson.

Miscue presented a legal tank under IATA and US DOT. It shoulda been allowed. But ignorance abounds...

This kid who checked his bags saying that he just took a course is his problem. It takes years to understand these Regulations. And they constantly change. Again proving a "little knowledge" is dangerous.

And the commment about Over-Seas being lax? Nonsense. IATA is "International" stadardization of Haz Mat shipping by Air. "International Air Transportation" is what the first three letters stand for. All proposed and phased in after the Value Jet incident in the Everglades.

[hitech]

Originally posted by cphilip
They defer to IATA now. On air transport. DOT and IATA regs are what I do at Clemson.

Come on, give us the regs. You must have access to them. Aren't they on the internet somewhere?

[GT]

Originally posted by cphilip
Well your wrong to look to DOT. They defer to IATA now. On air transport. DOT and IATA regs are what I do at Clemson.

Miscue presented a legal tank under IATA and US DOT. It shoulda been allowed. But ignorance abounds...

This kid who checked his bags saying that he just took a course is his problem. It takes years to understand these Regulations. And they constantly change. Again proving a "little knowledge" is dangerous.

And the commment about Over-Seas being lax? Nonsense. IATA is "International" stadardization of Haz Mat shipping by Air. "International Air Transportation" is what the first three letters stand for. All proposed and phased in after the Value Jet incident in the Everglades.

Cphilip,
I dont understand the need for you to put on the big man pants? Must you really feel like a BIG MAN on the 'net? Your responce is extremely childish! I think you are the ignorant to say that it takes years of experince to determine the correct reg and apply in a real world sistuation. I certianly agree in some casses however in this sistuation I disagree completely.

IATA considers compressed gas cyclinders a "dangerous good." Does that really matter for us paintballers? Not really.

Feel free to hit the code of federal regulations and search for 49CFR172.101 (Hazardous Materials Table) (BTW if you are on dial up it may take a min or two to come up)

You are looking for "compressed gas, N.O.S." according to DOT the tanks need to be less than 76Kg(for passenger air craft/rail). I hope all of your tanks are less than 75Kg. Its shipping group 2.2 and a un number 1956. If you really wanted to be PC DOT you could add a larger sticker on the side of your tanks that says "EMPTY."

Remeber kids empty your tanks of any and all gases prior to flight Little side note most of the SCUBA guys just weigh there tanks pay, a few if it is over the airlines weight limit for the domestic/international flight, load thier gear, and take off.

jb

Edit: I can't spell. Here is the CFR link http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/c...eve.html#page1 insert ths citation I gave you above and the DOT hazmat table will come up

[raehl]

I did find some regs the other day (don't have the links handy) but you woud definitely not want to show them to any airline personnel as they're close to being written in Greek.

Remember that scuba tanks are compressed air tanks though...

- Chris

[raehl]

But...

1) Don't put a sticker on the tank.


2) This doesn't do anything to solve the problem of telling airline personnel your tanks are safe and getting them to believe you. While it doesn't take years to learn this particular regulation, i'm sure cphillip is right baout it taking years to have a good working knowlege of all of them.


- Chris

[Recon by Fire]

You are always going to be at the mercy of whatever booger eating moron they have working that day. Last December I flew to Washington with my gear. They asked about the Max-Flow and after I told them it was empty and the valve open, they never gave it a second thought. It is sad when I have had an easier time flying with a pistol and ammunition than others have with paintball gear!

[cphilip]

gtrsi...

Calm you self boy. DOT Hazmat tables are NOT for air nor do they tell you anything about shipping of those. They give you the classification only which is one tiny step in chosing the proper labeling and placarding of those. Land Sea and Rail only now. IATA phazed in a few years back for air. The Regs are similar but subtle differences in labeling and packaging references. And not taken from the DOT haz mat tables at all. Some similarities but it takes a while to notice all the differences and its international now.

And believe me it takes a LONG time to fully understand them and how they all interrelate to each other.

IATA has a web site. If you look to the shipping regs and NOT the classification tables, you will find IATA repeatedly deferred to by DOT. And a completely different set of packaging and volumes allowed from what DOT allows. And a different set of packaging specifcations and even still some subtle differences in terminology. For instance the use of the term Excepted Quantities and Exempt Quantities. Things like that.

I am sorry if 25 years working with these comes across as if I know more about them. I am sure there are some people out there that do know more than I about them. But I doubt that includes you. Seriously I do. Maybe its cause I certainly should know a lot about them. I not going to applogize for that. Comes with the territory.

I could give em all to you but they are pretty big. Just go look for IATA and you will find thier web site. Darn people make you buy a complete set of regs every year to keep up. And you are required to train on them every year too. Both DOT and IATA as well as RCRA regs seem to be an endless sea of new changes every year. This year it was the inclusion of the new Federal Security and Bioterrism stuff.

[cphilip]

Re: But...

Originally posted by raehl
1) Don't put a sticker on the tank.


2) This doesn't do anything to solve the problem of telling airline personnel your tanks are safe and getting them to believe you. While it doesn't take years to learn this particular regulation, i'm sure cphillip is right baout it taking years to have a good working knowlege of all of them.


- Chris

To point one that is correct. NEVER label something its not except negative labeling can be good. I use stickers that say "Empty" on my stuff all the time. And inital and date that. Just to show someone has examined it and made a determination. But then again I get inspected so I am always wanting to remove all doubt.

yea but the point I was trying to make is that you guys already know the part that concerns you the most. Compressed air tanks. And indeed many of the guys they have hired know less than you. This kid Miscue ran into had enough knowledge to be wrong most of time. Its unfortunate cause Miscue (and most of you) were right.

A compressed cylinder is not compressed if its empty and can be verified as such. And his was.

And by ground a compressed non hazardous, non asphyxiant Gas can be shipped as empty if it has 30 psi or less in it.

But almost any tank no matter what the chemical in it can be shipped by ground with the correct labeling and manifesting. Its all a matter of the shippers knowing what he has and shipping it in the proper method and packaging.

But calling something empty gets a little dicey. For instance DOT says no more than on inch of matterial is left in a Drum its empty. But IATA does not allow that. And RCRA says all removable material and in the case of Highly Toxics it must be tripple rinsed to be empty. You would be suprised how many ways there are to descibe empty!

So all this varies somewhat between land and air now. Same stuff just different rules for what can and cannot be done. And how its manifested, packed and labeled. And wether or not it is restricted to Air cargo only vs Passenger Cargo combination flights and such as that... when it comes to Air shipment. And that is all in IATA. And sure they have a web site!

One of the MOST important points is an Airline may restrict further than IATA allows. It's thier right to do so.

[GT]

Originally posted by cphilip
gtrsi...

I am sorry if 25 years working with these comes across as if I know more about them. I am sure there are some people out there that do know more than I about them. But I doubt that includes you. Seriously I do. Maybe its cause I certainly should know a lot about them. I not going to applogize for that. Comes with the territory.

And that is certianly fine but the tone of your post is what set me off.

DOT Hazmat tables are NOT for air nor do they tell you anything about shipping of those. They give you the classification only which is one tiny step in chosing the proper labeling and placarding of those. Land Sea and Rail only now.

I dont understand, under DOT its classifed as a shipping group 2.2 and as long as your are shipping less than 75kg and empty your golden. I am lost as to why a person would need any additional.

IATA phazed in a few years back for air. The Regs are similar but subtle differences in labeling and packaging references. And not taken from the DOT haz mat tables at all. Some similarities but it takes a while to notice all the differences and its international now.

I will be completly honest I do not have my IATA book sitting infront of me, so to atest to the differences in regs concering "empty" cyclinders would be an error on my part.

Both DOT and IATA as well as RCRA regs seem to be an endless sea of new changes every year. This year it was the inclusion of the new Federal Security and Bioterrism stuff.

Very true,
Our select agent security plan has been completed for sometime and it seems the DOT security plan is going to fall on my sholders as well as the DOT traing that is comming around the corner.

1) Don't put a sticker on the tank.

2) This doesn't do anything to solve the problem of telling airline personnel your tanks are safe and getting them to believe you. While it doesn't take years to learn this particular regulation, i'm sure cphillip is right baout it taking years to have a good working knowlege of all of them.

1. In all honesty the sticker thing was just a side comment. You really wouldnt want a sticker on your PB tank since the guy working the fill station always gets nervous, however most compressed gas cycliders have a sticker on them some where to note what gas is located insde.

2. I agree 100 percent. We can beat this to death but in the end we are stuck with this.....

You are always going to be at the mercy of whatever booger eating moron they have working that day

[cphilip]

Gt, go back and read my post again with these thoughts in mind.

I think your reading some of my comments that were mostly against the guy who refused Miscues tank as directed against you or someone. In fact I mostly agreed with some of your stuff. But I was not responding to anyone in particular realy. I think you took it out of context of what I meant. I was reffering to THAT airport guy as having enough knowledge to be dangerous. And some of the others that were trying to take it all from DOT only. Thats all. I did not intend to sound like a snob or anything. Sorry if it came off that way.

You want a hard copy of the IATA without buying one? I can send you last years copy if you like? I not got any use for it if it would be of interest to you. There are not many changes realy in the whole of it. Pretty intersting and I think very well written stuff. I be glad to mail you this one if you want.

This whole Bioterrorism Act is just flat out screwball. I do not think they relized what they did with this one.

[rpm07]

http://www.ata.com/pdfs_docs/atacoc.pdf.

[cphilip]

Re: Re: But...

Originally posted by cphilip
One of the MOST important points is an Airline may restrict further than IATA allows. It's thier right to do so.

And there you go! There is one so you have to ask who is friendly or not. And even then they can change em on you at the drop of a hat. All within their rights to do so.

[raehl]

Well, no, not exactly...

You'd be entitled to some sort of compensation if they denied you bording due to refusal to carry a reasonable item in the event of a sudden change in policy I'd imagine, even if limited to ATAs free shipping offer.

- Chris

[raehl]

The real big problem here though...

Is the rules are written to define what is *NOT* allowed. The rules are not written to define what *IS* allowed, so you likely won't find a rule which says "empty compressed air tanks are ok".

- Chris

[cphilip]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gtrsi
Very true,
Our select agent security plan has been completed for sometime and it seems the DOT security plan is going to fall on my sholders as well as the DOT traing that is comming around the corner.

We just finished both of those. The Security plan is not as bad as it looks at first glance.



1. In all honesty the sticker thing was just a side comment. You really wouldnt want a sticker on your PB tank since the guy working the fill station always gets nervous, however most compressed gas cycliders have a sticker on them some where to note what gas is located inside.

I am a great believer in even negative labeling. Not required by any rule if something is empty but I have seen NOT labeling backfire on people when someone asked them to prove it was empty. In the absence of any other labeling almost anything can be implied. So when something is what it says it is it should be the right thing to do to label it as such. But that confuses these Airport morons so maybe its not wise to always go with common sense. The problem with labeling a tank permanetly with the term "Compressed Air" is what to do with that label when its empty. It should be removed or defaced and "empty" applied to it. And back and forth as the contents change. I do this with cylders we treat and empty. The original label comes off when they are treated and "Empty" goes on. Course they then have a removed valve or a hole in them too. So verification is simple. I think realy when you get into it you can see how the airlines have a prolem "Verifying" with the valve still in. But the definition in DOT is "At atmospheric pressure" and I think IATA says that and adds "verifiable" ...

But if something is Empty then a label saying Empty is certainly the thing to do. I agree with you there. But I am not sure a Airport Goon will see it that way. Nor understand the changes in the labels. He doesn't realy get to verify by being able to see into the cylinder. So it could be a problem. In the old days some made SCUBA tank travelers remove the entire valve for shipping. And thats gonna be a problem if they do this.

Oh let me tell you a story about that. I guy I work with is a retired Marine guy who used to take trips to the Bahama's diving. One airline made him have his SCUBA tanks lose so they could be peered into. And there were SCUBA shops set up that do this down there. So he had this hankering for this particular Rum... So on the way back he fills the SCUBA 3/4 full of this Rum and gently screws in the J valve. Upon inspection to load all he has to do is remove the valve and this proves the tank is at Atmospheric pressure. And he makes sure the tank is upright. And he passes through and neatly makes it back with about five gallons of nice Island Rum. However he said he could never get the slight hint of that Rum out of that tank from them on and finaly had to just get another tank. And so therefore was never tempted to do this again.

I always felt shipping your paintball tank out to yourself by ground was the best safest way to be sure you had it. Pain in the arse but... well.