Possible Resolution to the 3.2 Problem.

[RRfireblade]

Re: Erm...

Originally posted by raehl
Who is making WAS boards that argues that they're legal?

- Chris

The infamous Jim Drew. He also seems to be involved in all the rules discussions governing these issues.

Coincidence?

I think not.

Jay.

[TheTramp]

Re: Hrm... you mean bounces like...

Originally posted by raehl
Hrm... you mean bounces like...Those of the HES sensor being triggerred by the solenoid?

No, in fact you'll notice that this entire thread is dedicated to getting rid of these.

The shot buffering is for "real" pulls that are missed.

[cledford]

Originally posted by RRfireblade


That's not how the shocker worked.

Jay.

Check out: http://www.warpig.com/paintball/tech...bo/index.shtml

-Calvin

[RRfireblade]

That was just his "explanation" at the time.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Originally posted by RRfireblade
That was just his "explanation" at the time.

I'm not going to be the one starting the controversy this time...

[SlartyBartFast]

Shocker "Turbo" Mode

What a load of garbage. "Trigger Events". I'll add that I normally hold Bill Mills in high regard, but swallowing the explaination of turbo mode being acceptable like that? PUHLEASE....

[RANT][/RANT]

Added: With adjustable dwells and other FPS affecting settings being under the control of boards the cheating potential is exponential. How easy would it be to have markers fire hot only under certain conditions to avoid detection by refs?

[raehl]

Re: Shocker "Turbo" Mode

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
Honestly, I think queueing and max ROF are great. But the number of queued shots needs to be limited. But even if it is not limited, I don?t see it as a big issue. If you pull 15 shots in a second with a max rof set at 10, does it matter that the gun shoots for 1/2 second after the player stops wailing? As long as it?s one PHYSICAL pull to ONE marker cycle.

Actually, yes. That's a HUGE safety issue. And I believe queueing shots is illegal - if the shot is queued, it's not really the trigger that's causing the gun to fire anymore, it's the board.

The problem is that paintball progressed too quickly to huge payoffs. The result is that for the same money, players will sign up for a tournament that offers huge prizes before they sign up for one that promises to be well run and officiated.

SOME players. I know plenty of players who play well-run tournaments with no prizes.

- Chris

[cphilip]

LOL! Go gettem Sly! Tell us how ya really feel!

I hear ya brother!

[Muzikman]

Should shot buffering be allowed, noper. But should AGD not do it to set a good example, nope. Paintball has always been about the ROF. Even back in the pump days, they did everything they could to increase the ROF. All the other companies are out there doing it, why not AGD? And if you even ask me the question "If everyone jumped off a bridge would you?" Yes I would, it would be lonely with no one around.

[SlartyBartFast]

Re: Re: Shocker "Turbo" Mode

Originally posted by raehl
Actually, yes. That's a HUGE safety issue. And I believe queueing shots is illegal - if the shot is queued, it's not really the trigger that's causing the gun to fire anymore, it's the board.

Well, it's a MINOR safety issue. In the example, it would be 5 more balls in one half second. They wouldn't be any less well aimed than the barely aimed beginning of the string. The REALLY important thing IMO is to get rid of bouncy triggers and illegal software. THAT's when the board is doing ALL the work.

SOME players. I know plenty of players who play well-run tournaments with no prizes.
- Chris

Hmm. Well, in the late 80's I used to play 10 or 20 a side games in the woods with Splatmasters with no refs and if you FELT a hit you called yourself out. These days, when I've gone to fun days I've had to put up with the losers with the thousand dollars markers and the "I'm not out until you drag me kicking and screaming out" attitudes.

Look at the discussions about Skyball as an example. THe entire thread was not about the atmosphere, officiating, or whether any other reason justified cost. It was all about what the prizes were going to be.

Until officiating is a larger hit to the tournament budget than prizes, I doubt anything will change. Paid proffesional refs, with all expenses paid by the tournament.

THEN paintball will be professional. Unless of course we want to be professionals in the same league as olympic figure skating.

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by cphilip
LOL! Go gettem Sly! Tell us how ya really feel!

I hear ya brother!

I'll take your word for that Phil,that's to much readin' for me.

[cgrieves]

Re: Re: Shocker "Turbo" Mode

Originally posted by raehl


Actually, yes. That's a HUGE safety issue. And I believe queueing shots is illegal - if the shot is queued, it's not really the trigger that's causing the gun to fire anymore, it's the board.

But in an electro marker driven by software, it's never the case that the trigger really fires the marker. It's always a queued shot- the trigger signal registers on one of the signal inputs to the PIC, then when the program cycle finally gets to the appropriate part of the code the marker is fired. So arguably the shot is always a queued one, even if it only takes milliseconds. The latency of the solenoid or firing device separates the trigger signal and the marker firing cycle even further.

So at what point should we define queueing as illegal or unsafe? Until chrono marshalls are qualified to download, disassemble and understand the marker's software I think we'll just have to stick to plain old common sense- i.e. if you pull the trigger and the marker fires two seconds or more later, or two trigger pulls result in three balls fired, then it's a safety issue. On the other hand if the timing of the trigger actuating and the marker firing are indistinguishable to the average human, and you're getting one ball per pull, then I think it's fair to say it's not a safety issue and isn't going to affect the outcome of a game any more than the variations in consistency of the paint, or the colour of the grass.

Common sense, it seems, is the answer to most of our problems, but as soon as you add money and marketing to the equations it is rarely applied.

[raehl]

Indeed...

I don't expect manufacturers to regulate ROF - that 13 bps "agreement" hit the wayside ages ago. Leagues need to make rules regulating ROF and enforce them.

I suspect that the final solution will be ASTM comes out with a standard requiring a minimum trigger pull force and length, or maybe we force manufacturers to have their software certified and ban uncertified software (which wouldn't be too hard to enforce, you just download what's there and compare it to what's certified - if it doesn't match, it's not legal.)


- Chris

[AGD]

Well there already IS an ASTM standard against full auto. You see how many manufacturers are following THAT one, even in the face of potentially huge lawsuits.

AGD

[Miscue]

I figure, PB is controlled by money. It is to manufacturer's interest to allow high speed guns. All of a sudden there is a necessity for high-tech loaders, more money is spent on paint because more paint can be flung, spiffy electronic boards have a purpose, one gun can be made unequal to another with speeds beyond 13... and become popular and sell.

People running tournies, manufacturers... hands in each others pockets... they don't care about the 'sport' of paintball, they just want to make money. This is why we have this bizarre issue where they don't even enforce their own rules... and certain rules become acceptable to break because of precedents set... unwritten rules. I guess it's like offensive pass-interference, wide receivers have been getting away with it forever.

They don't have the guts to enforce certain things, because then people might favor another tourny circuit over theirs... or it would go against the interests of those with money... etc.

We're gonna have issues until someone who can do something about it has the cojones to fix the problems... I don't foresee that happening soon.