Very important anti-hype thread at PBN - Doc leading the charge!

[cledford]

This thread is related specifically to autocockers, but there is a lot of great info on hype in general. SP and AGD (the good and the bad) are specifically cited by Doc as examples during his "discussion" with Ethan of Free Flow. Evidently, Ethan has been hyping an $80 service that does nothing but cost money and that got under Doc's skin. I'm just glad to see clarity leaking out from AO to the rest of the PB world. It is really cool to see someone in the industry trying to defend their cash reaming practices to someone with a good understanding of *real* facts and the backbone to not knuckle under. BTW, I am not "anti" Free Flow. I own several of their parts and am saving for one of their beautiful body kits. I am also a WAS, SP, and AKA owner. I have nothing against these companies either - but will always point out their BS.

The thread is here - anyone who is "anti-hype" should read it:

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=313374&perpage=21&pagenumber=1

This is what Doc had to say about AGD specifically:

"As for hype driving this industry, sure, that's a given. But which would you rather see: A hype-driven company like, say, SP, that says their copied-from-a-Matrix Shocker is "unique" and "new" and has the hot new "Seal Forward Technology" (because, as we all know, an open bolt just isn't quite as good as a closed bolt) or a real-world company like, say, Airgun Designs that actually performs tests (that check things everybody just "knows", like the waterballoon thing, rifling/spinning the paintball, barrel porting, low/high pressure, etc) and develops real technology based on that analysis? (The RT valve, the mechanical ULE trigger assembly, the un-choppable Level 10 bolt, etcetera.)"


-Calvin

[bornl33t]

werd doc... werd, you tell them!!!!

[shartley]

Personally, I'd rather see companies spend their time and effort actually developing something useful, rather than spending it coming up with some new buzzwords or a new marketing schpiel.

[lord1234]

by far one of the best posts i read in a while

[JEDI]

Freeflow is one of the few companies in paintball that cares about their customers, and the product they provide. Its unfair to use them as a example in the hype arguement. Not many companies will give you the service they provide, or give you free upgrades as they're developed.

If you dont understand the benefits of this service, or dont agree with it, fine. You dont have to publicly bash it. Focus your efforts in a more useful area. I'm sure Free Flow doesn't need a reason to be discouraged from offering the excellent service they provide. (I had a broken feed tube on my Boxxer. I mailed it Monday, I received a call, and had A BRAND NEW BODY to play with Thursday.)

This is no different than people harping on the fact that AGD produced a bad Super Bolt. They're both great companies, and don't deserve to be unfairly bashed. Keep paintball companies in check, but don't start unprovoked Witch Hunts.

[Steelrat]

I agree with JEDI, Doc was out of line. Someone asked a question, Ethan answered it, then Doc jumped on him. Its not as if Ethan were actively promoting his service, he was just answering a question.

Ethan and the rest of the Freeflow crew offer excellent customer service and great products. If Doc feels the need to engage in some anti-hype crusade there are targets a lot more deserving than freeflow.

Just let that thread die and move on.

[cledford]

Sam,

I would submit that there is marketing that is creative adaptation of the truth. But there is also outright bunk and hype - 2 very different things. Is there a black and white litmus test? No, each situation needs to be dealt with individually - but we can learn something from the following examples.

"Chopless level 10" (AGD) Level 10 solves on the order of 95% or greater the chopping issue of mags. Theoretically someone could achieve 100%. This is marketing based on the best case experience of the atypical user - kinda like everyone who eats subway isn't going to lose 300 pounds like Jared. Regardless, some people *can*. Furthermore, the mod *significantly* produces MOST of what is claimed.

"Low pressure give better accuracy" (SP & AKA) Untrue - never can be.

"The paintball is like a water balloon, out ports reduce pressure on it by allowing the air in front of the ball to escape easier - reducing pressure on the ball." (SP) Untrue and never could be.

"My board solves the shootdown problem with the Timmy." (WAS) There was no shootdown with the Timmy - so what got solved?

"Our truing/honing/boring method (for the bolt tube) will make your cocker more accurate." (Freeflow) Totally untrue. It has nothing to do with accuracy and could have no impact on it. Even it had a small amount of benefit allowing the statement to be technically true - it still would be a far cry from the level-10 claim that is at least *significantly* substantiated - if not completely.

These are just a few examples. My point is that hype is one thing - but in PB it often crosses the line into blatant fraud - pure and simple. Each situation need to be judged individually, and most don't come close to reality, much less providing even a shred of evidence that they provide said performance increase and value.

-Calvin

[cphilip]

Last year at SO SE day here in SC I rubbed a raffel ticket on my crotch and told the guy it was Unka Phil mojo. He won a Warp feed! So... anyone want some Unka Phil mojo? Only 5 bucks!

[cledford]

To the other posters who advocated "leaving" Ethan alone. It is exactly the type of attitude shown by you that provides "hypers" the incentive they need to continue to mislead. First, Doc does understand Ethan's service - and based on the thread even better then Ethan does. Ethan appears to have no formal understanding or training to allow himself to even know whether or not something he is charging for has any benefit at all. Furthermore his customer service, or the fact that he is a nice guy changes this fact not at all. If you are going to defend him you need technical information to support his assertion that his service do what he says it does. His customer service has no bearing at all.

Doc did not bash Ethan, doc was looking out for everyone (like you) who is willing to throw away $80 bucks because some "nice guy" says they should - but can't provide any *technical* reasoning to support his beliefs.

And what the heck does AGD producing a single failed product, which they publicly acknowledged, have to do with someone selling a service that has no factual bases for what the provided value might be? The 2 situations aren't even close...

-Calvin

[JEDI]

Originally posted by cphilip
Last year at SO SE day here in SC I rubbed a raffel ticket on my crotch and told the guy it was Unka Phil mojo. He won a Warp feed! So... anyone want some Unka Phil mojo? Only 5 bucks!

Do you take Paypal? I can do $8 shipped.

[cphilip]

Sure do! But I would have to do "the Mojo rub" when you got here. It does not transfer well. It has to be done on a machine that once was used to hone... well... never mind who but...I can issue you a reciept!

[JEDI]

Originally posted by cledford
To the other posters who advocated "leaving" Ethan alone. It is exactly the type of attitude shown by you that provides "hypers" the incentive they need to continue to mislead. First, Doc does understand Ethan's service - and based on the thread even better then Ethan does. Ethan appears to have no formal understanding or training to allow himself to even know whether or not something he is charging for has any benefit at all. Furthermore his customer service, or the fact that he is a nice guy changes this fact not at all. If you are going to defend him you need technical information to support his assertion that his service do what he says it does. His customer service has no bearing at all.

Doc did not bash Ethan, doc was looking out for everyone (like you) who is willing to throw away $80 bucks because some "nice guy" says they should - but can't provide any *technical* reasoning to support his beliefs.

And what the heck does AGD producing a single failed product, which they publicly acknowledged, have to do with someone selling a service that has no factual bases for what the provided value might be? The 2 situations aren't even close...

-Calvin

What ever dude. Quit paintball, and go save the world why dont ya.

[Muzikman]

Someone is missing the point of the original super bolt. The product might not have been sound, but the claims were true. It was lighter, it increased bolt speed and it was made of delrin. As far as I can remember, there were no other claims. They never claimed that the delrin sleeve would last for ever, they never said it would stop chopping. But I think it did lead to one good thing, I think the original super bolt sent AGD looking at bolt speed as the problem to their chopping which turned around and led the development to the Lvl 10.

[shartley]

[cledford]

Paintball first, then the world

Honestly, when I busted Jim Drew on the Timmy issue, a lot of people said "Jim's stuff works, why bother him?"

When I publicly ripped into AKA for the Jeckle/Hyde issue of producing a great marker then marketing it on closed bolt BS I was told "gee, leave AKA alone, the product is great and they always send me free orings in the mail."

When I busted one SP in the SFT thread I was told "who cares? So what they're marketing." Forget the fact that SFT was cooked up to cover their previous lie about closed bolt being more accurate. I mean how much wasted cash is that one fallacy alone responsible for?

It's not until the MAJORITY of the paintball consumers stop accepting being lied to openly (at worst) or being "marketed" something that was never even tested (at best) that these people (no matter how nice or customer friendly) will stop.

I never understand these threads. If someone bought a mustang and it only produced 50% of the horsepower it claimed - they'd be pissed at Ford. I can't figure out why in paintball it is OK for manufacturers to mislead as long as they provide "great customer service" otherwise.

-Calvin