Very important anti-hype thread at PBN - Doc leading the charge!

[GT]

Originally posted by Doc Nickel

I'm a gadget freak as much as the next guy. But there is honestly no reason, other than pure bling-bling, for half the mods and add-ons out there. Doc.

[email protected]

[Doc Nickel]

Originally posted by Steeratt
I was just objecting to the whole reasoning behind the posts questioning FF's mods.

-The whole thread was started by someone interested in knowing whether or not the mod did anything or was worth having done.

Near as I could tell, it was a genuine request, so I provided what information I had to the best of my knowledge.

Please tell me how else the same situation could have been handled.

The post was a simple question and answer session, yet some people found it necessary to jump in and prove why the mod is nothing but "hype."

Refer back to the above. Someone asked if the mod was worthwhile. After a fair number of replies, the best info posted was little more than... shall we say inflated specs from Ethan, a few anecdotal replies ("Oh yeah, freeflow's great!") and a couple of mentions that it probably didn't do anything.

As I noted, I deal in facts. At least, facts to the best of my knowledge. An anecdote is not a fact.

I was, in the beginning, genuinely curious. Had Ethan provided some useful numbers, I'd have had the data I wanted and been satisfied. But, as the thread wore on it appeared he didn't have that information, and that made me even more curious- If you don't know how far off the original dimensions are, how do you know it needs to be machined and honed?

And that made me think any body sent in for the mod is simply handed off to the shop with the hone, run through the machines and sent back. Yes, it might be straight and true when it's returned, but how do we know it wasn't straight and true to start with?

Why is it that people feel the need to jump in a thread and prove their engineering expertise by antagonizing someone else?

-Why does a manufacturer feel he needs to charge $80 for a mod that very likely doesn't do anything but make the bolt chamber a little smoother, something that a player can do just as well in his own home with a cordless drill and a $35 Flex-Hone?

I was not intentionally "antagonizing" anyone. Do I need to post a smiley in place of every comma, period and quotation mark?

Doc said it right when he defined some of the comments as "snarky." I have to give Ethan credit for maintaining his calm.

-Please point out where I insulted anyone, denigrated their business, badmouthed their products or demeaned an individual. Heck, please point out where anyone in that thread lost their calm. If you're looking for a flamewar, that's not even cold ember.

But I think it is unfair that this particular example of "hype" was singled out.

-I refer you back to the very first post in the PBNation thread, where a fellow asked about that very mod. Should I have gone to the thread about Turtle 'Cockers and replied?

If you go to Freeflow's site, you will not find a single mention of this process. I ordered a brand new Lotus from them, and they NEVER even suggested I get this process done, and I spoke to Ethan himself.

-And why isn't it offered, if it's a mod worth $80?

Why don't we reserve out collective unhappiness towards the paintball marketing machine for the truly egregious examples of "hype."

-Ah, you mean "save it for somebody elses' hype", right?

Where's the cutoff? Low Pressure Chambers are only $35, those aren't worth complaining about, are they? How about $150 HammerHead barrels? Those must be worth our collective wrath.

Again, the proprietor of the mod was in a thread discussing that mod- What better time is there to ask about it?

Doc.

[hardr0ck68]

i have read the entirity of both these threads, and i will personally admit i know little to nothing about maching and the processes envolved, what i do know is good, fact based argument. I saw much more fact based argument comming from Doc, than i did Eathen. I have been buying from pro paintball longer than most of you knew they existed, i have shot (but never owned) at least 5 FreeFlow cockers and they are great guns. The quality of the Free Flow, the quality of Pro Paintballs Customer Service, the quality of Pro Paintball is not being debated. What is being debated is this one process that (to me) appears to be unneeded. I for one would like to thank Doc, trying to enlighten a paintball community which is mired in Hype, ignorance, and fallacy is not an easy job.

[shartley]

[Lohman446]

I read through the whole thread, scientifically it was beyond me, I have a general idea of what they were trying to accomplish and the general idea that tolerances can not be that bad due to the simple size to start with - the process, as I beleive Doc pointed out, may have some effect if the bolt were misaligned, by over a quarter of an inch, which I cannot beleive it is.

In defense, Ethan is offering a service that was likely sought (I mean, I doubt he invented it). I may be wrong though. IF people seek a service, value it at $80 and pay it, more power to them.

I commend both Ethan and Doc in that thread - they did show a professionalism lost on many people who jumped in. I beleive that both of them are trying to serve the PB community in that thread. What if Doc does his testing and proves that this does nothing. Will it stop being offered? That is possible. SP would not have ever offered to let someone else test anything of theres without reporting the results to them in closed format I am sure. Others have tested SP claims, but I doubt SP was happy about it.

Either way, the thread was enlightening, and for a machinist to question how close one has to be to "perfect" for there to be a value in going further... good job. For Ethan to respond civilly... good job.

[bornl33t]

man... it's topics like this that REALLY PISS ME OFF. You kiddies argue for the sake of arguing... leave doc alone he's right and your wrong period. If you think I'm dissending.. then you thinked right. Now go tell your mommy about it... geeeez, never seen so much crap in my life.

[GT]

Originally posted by Heat
man... it's topics like this that REALLY PISS ME OFF. You kiddies argue for the sake of arguing... leave doc alone he's right and your wrong period. If you think I'm dissending.. then you thinked right. Now go tell your mommy about it... geeeez, never seen so much crap in my life.

[no1beefcake]

Re: Very important anti-hype thread at PBN - Doc leading the charge!

Originally posted by cledford
Evidently, Ethan has been hyping an $80 service that does nothing but cost money and that got under Doc's skin. I'm just glad to see clarity leaking out from AO to the rest of the PB world. It is really cool to see someone in the industry trying to defend their cash reaming practices to someone with a good understanding of *real* facts and the backbone to not knuckle under.

Yeah, because Doc (the owner of a custom shop), has no financial interest in berating another company. I'm sure he's acting on pure benevolance.

The thread is here - anyone who is "anti-hype" should read it:

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=313374&perpage=21&pagenumber=1

-Calvin

"Yeah! We're "anti-hype" and anti-pop, and we shop at Hot Topic. We're different! We won't be pigeoned-holed like those other suckers. Let's go read anti-capitalist novels at our local Emo coffee shop, and share our disdain for marketing over a triple half-decaf cap with no foam!"

[Ityl]

Originally posted by Marek


Great post there buddy.

If you're included in the "people" that still don't like mags, fine by me.

Actually I was the one who pushed mags in our area. Many people bought brand new mags because of me. Do I still like them? actually yes, if I had the money I'd buy one right now.

All my point was is that this has nothing to do with hype at all. It's about whether a service is worth a certain price. It probably isn't, because boring and honing can be expensive, especially when outsourcing. More and more people will dislike mags when every mag owner will jump on them when asking a question about a service.

[Doc Nickel]

Re: Re: Very important anti-hype thread at PBN - Doc leading the charge!

Originally posted by no1beefcake
Yeah, because Doc (the owner of a custom shop), has no financial interest in berating another company. I'm sure he's acting on pure benevolance.

-That might be a valid concern, if I offered that mod. Moreover, in the six years I've been in business, no one's ever even asked for it.

Your sarcasm aside, you're exactly right- I have zero financial stake in whether or not he offers that service.

man... it's topics like this that REALLY PISS ME OFF. You kiddies argue for the sake of arguing... leave doc alone he's right and your wrong period. If you think I'm dissending.. then you thinked right. Now go tell your mommy about it... geeeez, never seen so much crap in my life.

-Now that's not entirely called for. This whole discussion may be a touch heated in spots, but it's been largely civil and reasoned. There's no need to turn it into a "flame war".

Doc.

[AGD]

Ok I will chime in here.

I am not going to comment on the mod being good or bad just some technical points about line boring your body.

Lets say your bolt-barrel alignment is crooked by 3 thousandths. So you want to bore it straight because you have this fancy machine sitting around. Now you have to make a choice, do I use the same size bit? If I do, then when I look down my finished bore, one side will be completely milled away to aluminum while the other side will still have ano. Fine you say because no one looks in there anyway and now its right. So you put your STOCK bolt back in and what happens, the bolt floats back and forth in the new (now oblong) bore and you are worse off than before.

Solution #2, use a BIGGER bit and redrill the hole bigger so the thing is round, straight and in-line. GREAT! Looking good! Put your STOCK bolt back in and now its wandering around even more than before!

The only real fix is to use a big bit and then custom fit the bolt to the bore with a NEW BOLT (since you can't put metal back on your old one).

If any of you are big enough gear heads to know about line boring crankshaft journals for race engines, you can confirm that they use oversize bearings after the operation.

AGD

[davidb]

Yeah beefcake, Doc is in this for purely selfish reasons. Because he's really hurting for business, which is why anybody going to him for a service gets put onto a waiting list.

The second part, while pretty funny in an abstract sort of way, is really too far off-base to even bother with.

ADDED: As for Tom's post, I had started to wonder when that would be brought up.

[Marek]

Originally posted by Ityl
All my point was is that this has nothing to do with hype at all. It's about whether a service is worth a certain price. It probably isn't, because boring and honing can be expensive, especially when outsourcing. More and more people will dislike mags when every mag owner will jump on them when asking a question about a service.

I see your point and see the truth in it. Again, not saying have a witch hunt everytime a company other than AGD comes out with a mod, but I can honestly say that I know nothing about what Doc is talking about in that thread. I'm a musician, not an engineer and that's it. If I hear some kid say that an Angel 4 shoots 30 bps, then I can call BS. But what Doc was asking at PBN is out of my league and it helps ppl like me find out what is good and what is hype from ppl like Doc who know what they are talking about.

[Doc Nickel]

Most boring operations like that (the so-called "F-1 piston boring machine") use a line-boring or jig-boring machine, most of which use a single-point bit.

Not a "drill bit" or reamer, per se, but rather a rigid bar with a single tool point sticking out a specific dimension. When boring, the bar is advanced a fixed distance per revolution (.001" per turn, or .003", etc.)

Both a drill bit and a reamer will try and "follow" an existing hole to a certain degree, especially with the smaller sizes like 11/16". The single-point bar tends to be more rigid and produces a finer finish (there's no chip-recutting or drill lips dragging but not cutting.)

Here's one of many types of "Jig Borer" that I'd wager is very similar- in concept if not actual design- to the one Ethan's crew uses.

But your point is exactly right- in either case, hone or bore/hone- the bolt bore becomes larger. Which is why I asked him right off the bat- how much metal is removed? Do they bore it a thou and hone another .0003"? Do they bore it .004" and hone another .001"?

Anno is the same question- strip the factory WGP matte black "hard" anno and you've opened the bolt bore up at least a thou right there, possibly two. Bore it three thou and hone another half-thou and what started out as a .6875" bore (just to throw a number out- 11/16") is now a .693", which is a pretty big change.

Now, of course, that doesn't mean anything to the ball- we're talking bolt passage here, not barrel. But for a non-O-ringed Delrin bolt, that means the difference between a fair seal and a healthy leak. (And the whole idea of a ringless bolt, and, for that matter, the whole bore-and-hone process, is to make a smoother, faster bolt, but still allow it to seal reasonably well.)

If they just honed it, to say, .0005" over nominal, you'd get a smoother, slightly "straighter" bore, and any benefits you're going to get from the whole process wil be had right there. Half a thou is more than enough to put a good crosshatch from a set of 600-grit or 800-grit stones, and won't be enough to drastically affect a 'ringless bolt seal.

I can't see them, however, easily or accurately taking less than a .001" cut, which makes the bore .002" larger, then the loss from the hone on top of that.

Doc.

[RRfireblade]

I think the whole question gets summed up right here....

Quoted......

I'm still waiting for the body from you Doc - then you can measure it as you please.

I'll be the first one to admit that I don't have the equipment to measure the roughness or straghtness of the bore inside the autococker. We contract a shop here in New York that works with Jaguar's F1 team. They own and operate the boring devices that are actually used in Jaguar's F1 engine. These are the exact same machines that they use to true bore our cockers. They are also used in some smaller engine applications but they are mostly used for the F1 or other racing work.



-Ethan

Ethan openly admits they don't and can't measure anything before during or apparently after and they shop the whole process out to another company.How can you possibly make a conclusion on anything if you don't know where you went or where you have been? Obviously they just take your body hand it off and say "bore it".
I've used a fair bit of FF's stuff and have mostly had good results but I think this is the kind of thing that can only hurt your Rep and is not worth the risk in the long run. You make $80 gross, and some outside source could easily do more damage than good with at best only marginal if any gains is IMO a recipe for disaster,not to mention a $300+ cocker body.

Jay.