Very important anti-hype thread at PBN - Doc leading the charge!

[InexactMelissa]

I have to wonder if the words 'hype' and 'attack' would have been used so much in this thread if it weren't for the people involved. I would like to point out that I think it's pretty cool to be involved in a sport where the Big Names mix and mingle with the lowlifes like me.

I interpreted the thread at PBN to be simply a debate on the value/merit of a paid service. Quite frankly, I visit PBN quite often for this type of thing - I'm new to the sport and have a lot of stuff I need to buy....I go there to read product opinions. As an added benefit, I have been learning to decipher this modern cell-phone-spelling crap and the approptiate spelling of 'do0d'

To sum up, I would like to offer the opinion that we may not want to start pointing fingers and calling names and instead appreciate that folks like Tom, Doc, Ethan, etc. are accessible. Dare you to IM Bill Gates when your Windows crashes.

[Kaiser Bob]

We need to have an AO Alaska retreat, just so we can hang out with Doc, the paintball playing polar bear airsmith

PS- I bet Doc's attic is the only one that could possibly rival Tom's as far as finding interesting odds and ends.

[Marek]

Originally posted by Ityl
I think the anti hype has been taken a little too far because to me it seemed like this wasn't at all about hyping a service. No wonder people still don't like mags.

Great post there buddy.

If you're included in the "people" that still don't like mags, fine by me.

[than205]

Originally posted by Doc Nickel

Now, in my own defense,

Doc,
Honestly, there is no need to defend your self.
Other than to continue to be clear and concise.
Besides that, Rock On!

[davidb]

This reminds me, just a little, of when everybody was arguing with Jim Drew over the claims he made about his products. Even the people that were arguing with him acknowledged that he made good stuff, and I'd be willing to bet that even his staunchest opponents in that particular scuffle wish that he would get that new Warp board on the market, and maybe make something for the E-mag! They never denied that his was a generally good company, providing good customer service and good products. I think that it just came from frustration that someone who can make such good products, capable of selling themselves on their own merit, would feel the need to exaggerate and blow out of proportion what they did.

Maybe it's just that we're a little spoiled.. We spend all this time on AO, where we're told pretty much every detail, good and bad, about every product. If this site was run by the Gardners instead of by Tom Kaye, we would have been told that the edges on the new rail were not going to be smoothed out because it had been found through many long years of experience as inventors and top pro players that flat surfaces on a rail would improve the life of your gun, and provided a more stable shooting platform, thereby improving your shot distance (err.. wait we can't say that any more).. that is.. your accuracy at long distances! Whereas Tom of course tells us that it's cause it's the low end rail.

But spoiled or not, I think that is where these arguments spring from. Not from a desire to "save the world", or anything of that sort. Just a desire to see the day when you could read a description of a paintball product and actually take it at face value, or at least where you could do that with more than a couple of small companies.

You guys keep saying "leave im alone, he makes good stuff and has great service!" Just think, if he starts to be a little more honest, he'll be perfect!

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Doc

Doc, I have nothing but respect for what you do in the shop and the information you provide. All you did was put an idea to the test and I think the key reason you've received so much opposition, flames, and such is because you make very valid points and are blunt about it.

The fact you are looking to take bodies, have the mod done, and actually scientifically test it to validate the claim shows you are willing to go even beyond what the creators of it did to verify it was a legit service to offer. You aren't even charging for it. I know if it does prove to be beneficial you will acknowledge it, but if we didn't have guys like Doc willing to say "BS" when a ridiculous marketing idea comes out and test it out throroughly, the quality of the average paintball product would be much lower than it is and companies would be getting away with far more fraudulent claims. So people insulting him should respect that.

Products in this sport are driven by hype, and having people elaborating on exactly what is going on and willing to step up and expect an explanation for any "fuzzy" concepts prevents more bogus ones from coming out. He is very knowledgable and wouldn't have said something if he didn't legitimately see something not make sense here.

And for those making remarks about his turnaround time... he's a short-staff shop and gets the business he does for the high quality of work he does. If you ask for a product, you should expect to be on the wait list, and if you don't want to deal with that go elsewhere. But don't moan about it.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Doc Nickel
D) I distinctly recall Tom himself saying that the original SuperBolt had a finite lifetime- it WILL wear out. And then a bunch of people saying, in effect, "hey, if it helps reduce ball breakage, I'll buy it anyway!"

I don't think AGD, at any time, insinuated that the original SuperBolt was anything but a temporary measure to help players until the Level 10 kit was finished and tested.

Also note Tom allowed SB1 users to trade it in on the LX.

[ben_JD]

Off-topic / Superbolt

For the record, my Superbolt ROCKED. I put 20+ cases through my Superbolted marker and never broke the bolt. I was sorry to turn it in for the Level 10 (which also rocks).

[Doc Nickel]

Originally posted by shartley

-That one I'll have to take your word on, Shartz. I only looked over the SB info in a cursory manner when it was available, and never personally owned one.

I hadn't heard that it "self destructed" quite so badly though... I just recall hearing that the thing, being Delrin, was designed with a finite lifespan, that it would wear out and have to be replaced.

As for the replacement, I distinctly recall at least one post saying something like "we're working on a replacement for it now". (Meaning, I assume, they had the LX in the works but not anywhere near ready.)

If I ever get to Alaska i HAVE to visit Doc!

AGD

-I have to use that as a sig line somewhere.

I have to wonder if the words 'hype' and 'attack' would have been used so much in this thread if it weren't for the people involved.

-That's a very good observation, and I agree.

Ethan has, and rightly so, a large number of satisfied customers- customers who see a post being critical of him or his business as an "attack".

Note that Conqueror (no offense) actually brought up a dissenting viewpoint before I did, yet I'm the one being lambasted. (Not that I mind- if I did, I wouldn't have posted.)

Like I said, if folks REALLY want to put an end to the hype (or more so, claimed lies), it takes more than pointing them out on an internet forum. It takes bringing in the law, and who here is willing to do that? Doc? Tom? Anyone else?

-That sort of thing is wholly unnecessary. As I said, you'll note that SP doesn't hype their "waterballoon" nonsense anymore, for example, very few companies still sell "venturi" bolts for another...

And personally, I'm less interested in getting the companies to "stop hyping products"- mainly because that's a totally lost cause- but rather I'm interested in educating the potential buyers.

I've been there. I bought an $85 Steel Wind barrel- a bloody expensive tube back then- in '95 because the guy on the 'phone at I&I Sports said it was the most accurate barrel he'd ever shot. I bought a TASO venturi bolt in '93 because the ads said it "improved accuracy". I bought one of the first Clippard rams in '94 because the ads said the gun would "cycle faster".

The SW barrel was, in fact, a very good barrel, but like any other barrel, if the paint wasn't any good or didn't match it well, it was no better than a stock barrel. The first time I shot it, I was pretty disappointed, especially since I'd paid so much. (It's got a great bore, but the paint we were shooting was fairly old and probably undersized. It wouldn't have shot well out of anything.)

The others- the bolt, the ram, etc- did almost nothing.

I put one of the first regulators we'd ever used on the same gun (an RG-1 reg) and we were astounded we got the pressure down to as low as 400 psi. Other players kept asking me if it did anything, did I notice any improvement.

I had to say no. Functionally, the difference between 850 psi CO2 pressure, and 400 psi regulated pressure, was undetectable. The gun was perhaps marginally quieter, but no more accurate, no faster, the ball didn't go further, chop less, wasn't any more consistent. (It'd do +/- 3fps on unregged CO2 anyway.)

Which is why I was so skeptical three or four years later when I saw the claims being made for the Tornado valve: longer range, more consistency, better accuracy, more shots per tank, improves your trigger pull, quieter, less recoil, etcetera, ad nauseum.

Long story short, if I can pass on some of that hard-earned skepticism, and maybe keep some player from blowing scarce cash on dubious mods, it's worth my time.

I'm a gadget freak as much as the next guy. But there is honestly no reason, other than pure bling-bling, for half the mods and add-ons out there. Fully half the 'Cocker valves out there are no better, if not somewhat worse, than the stock one. Most of the bolts don't do anything but make your wallet lighter. Very few of the $100+ barrels shoot any better at all than most of the $50-range barrels. The use of carbon fiber, teflon-impregnated ceramic, titanium or what have you in making a barrel, is a total, utter waste of money.

No, the hype will never end, but that doesn't mean you can't make an informed purchase.

Doc.

[frgood]

Originally posted by Doc Nickel

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And personally, I'm less interested in getting the companies to "stop hyping products"- mainly because that's a totally lost cause- but rather I'm interested in educating the potential buyers.
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No, the hype will never end, but that doesn't mean you can't make an informed purchase.

Doc.

This is the primary consideration. There has been a tendency over the last several decades of laziness on the consumers part. While it may be a current issue in paintball, this point is well taken as it applies to all walks of life.

Very insightful!

[shartley]

I agree.

[Miscue]

Doc wasn't attacking nobody. He was making a point, with a great deal of backing information, which is not an attack... it's good argument.

I couldn't help but cringe reading that thread. Intelligent posts by Doc and a few, with idiot posts all around... contesting what was said... defending stupid ideas.

[Steelrat]

We werent defending stupid ideas. I was just objecting to the whole reasoning behind the posts questioning FF's mods. The post was a simple question and answer session, yet some people found it necessary to jump in and prove why the mod is nothing but "hype." Why is it that people feel the need to jump in a thread and prove their engineering expertise by antagonizing someone else? Doc said it right when he defined some of the comments as "snarky." I have to give Ethan credit for maintaining his calm.

Do I think that mod does anything? No, and I own a freeflow cocker. But I think it is unfair that this particular example of "hype" was singled out. If you go to Freeflow's site, you will not find a single mention of this process. I ordered a brand new Lotus from them, and they NEVER even suggested I get this process done, and I spoke to Ethan himself. Why don't we reserve out collective unhappiness towards the paintball marketing machine for the truly egregious examples of "hype."

[BarryTolar]

Freeflow fast at service ?

Maybe if you don't have to pay for it

Took them 4 weeks, NOT including shipping, to put an eye on a cocker I sent them.

Barry

[Miltonyz]

The point in my mind is that the fellow from Free-Flow offers a service. For $80 dollars he offers to make a modification to your gun. Doc has every right in the world to ask why this modification would be worth 80 dollars to him. Somebody that sells me a product or a service better be able to tell me what it does.
Companies lie about the products they make. There is no doubt in my mind that many paintball companies make false and or misleading claims. Really I don't care. Because what really matters in all this is the education of the consumers. Smart consumers do not get taken. I would never buy a gun simply because it is closed bolt. From reading a couple of articles and tests I have learned that they have no advantage over open bolt guns. But if I had not had access to these articles it would have been fairly easy to convince me in the validity of the closed bolt argument. I for one appreciate when someone like Doc questions the validity of a companies claims. People like this increase the consumers awareness to where we do not get sucked into the hype. Knowledge is power.

Sort of off topic, but I belong to a few dirtbiking forums also. One of the moderators on the forum is an engine genius. He has modified and wrangled horsepower out of engines his whole life. He even used to make his own race fuel. His favorite thing was when some dealer came in and advertised products with impossible capabilities. He would in his own words "hold their feet to the fire". Not only was it fun to watch them squirm, but everyone who read one of those topics knew that their money would be wasted on the product. He helped educate and savvy up a large number of people.