Thresholds of Human Action Potentals and Debouce Times

[demonguy8]

Alright heres my take from the info already provided.

Given: 7ms= Nerve time
M= Muscle time
T= time it takes for the spring/magnet/whatever to reset the trigger
143/2=71.5 = Upper limit of Nerve pulls a sec without regard to other figures (ya gotta release the thing before you can pull it again)


MAXIMUM time it takes to fire the trigger with one finger once: 7ms + M

Time to FIRE and RELEASE the trigger once
2(7ms) + 2M

Time to fire a and release a two round burst
2(7ms) +2M + T + 2(7ms) + 2M

Now some food for thought.... Looking at it this way... there should be no difference in MROF between one finger and two fingers since both need a double signal to be sent. Now since its generally accepted that walking is faster, is the reason because of the upper limit on a single muscle OR is it the fact that part of coordinating your fingers would include sending the impulse for the second finger to move forward as the first one was coming off (but with enough time where NEITHER are pulling the trigger for the trigger spring to reset itself)????

[Miscue]

?

How are two fingers not faster than one... having different MROFs? They are independent of each other. Isn't that like saying a drummer can beat on his snare just as fast with one stick as with two?

[Butterfingers]

Well if your not basing your trigger pull on sheer luck your brain also must under go consecutive action potentials and synapses to coordinate movment...

for example...

1) Finger 1 pull... 7ms

THEN (if 1 and 2 happen together you will just have a spasm)

2) Finger one release... 7ms

THEN or (AND If you are lucky)

3) Finger 2 pull... 7ms

This is to fire 2 consecutive shots with coordination of 2 fingers.

[Miscue]

Why would there be a 7ms delay if I just nick/rake the trigger and scrape by it, followed by a second pull with another finger? Or, in the case of a nubbed trigger?

BTW, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here. This topic interests me, and I think throwing in more viewpoints can help us understand it better.

[Ultimator]

For the record, this is using a WAS Lasoya timmy after 200 shots. No paint or air was used:

1ms Debounce: 18bps
15ms Debounce: 12bps

[Butterfingers]

I knew it! Miscue has a deal with the devil!!!

If you can manage all those movements and get the gun to fire consecutively within the 7ms window you are a very lucky person.

Possible but given that scenario its just luck and most likely isnt gonna effect your rate of fire much. Not enough to account for a 6bps diffrence given ultimators example. Especially given the time your muscles need for movment the time required to actually move the trigger and your psycological limits which are nowhere near the limits of your nerve impulse.

Probably have a better chance of being struck by lightning twice consecutively while digging a hole on a sunny day.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by Butterfingers
I knew it! Miscue has a deal with the devil!!!

If I did, I would have at least got a harem or two out of it. /me looks around and doesn't see one.

[davidb]

davidb: Did your friend have a WAS board in his marker? If so, I think there was a recent post in one of the forums here in which Budd Orr (I think) and one other guy got a device to measure bps, and it turned out the WAS board was inflating results, by only taking the BPS of the fastest two shots in a string, and then like adding 10 bps to that number , or something like that.

They were not my friends. As I said before, they were people who posted on other forums. I was aware of the "shocking" discovery of the built-in ROF exaggerator. Basically that just makes me all the more correct my assertion that a 15 ms minimum on debounce settings would not be holding anyone back from their "true potential".

And how would turning the gun upside down help? Without paint, there is more recoil in the marker, making it more difficult to walk. With this in mind I've always gone under the assumption that however fast you can shoo dryfiring, you can shoot a little faster with paint.

I have no idea how turning the gun upside down helps.
Here's what I said-

"They achieved these numbers by putting the debounce all the way down, turning the marker upside down, sacrificing a goat, and praying to Jesus, Allah, Buddah, Vishnu, and the patron saint of electronics."

Amidst all that, I have no idea why you would think that I was serious, BUT - I remember that at least one of them did mention turning the gun upside down. I imagine they tried all manner of useless, impractical positions to see where they got the highest numbers.

When I first saw your post, I thought you were arguing with me, but now I'm just not sure anymore. ??

[MrWallen]

No, not arguing, just didn't know you weren't being serious.

C'mon, man, everyone knows that if you're not being serious then promiscuous use of the smilies are required, otherwise people don't it, lol.

[robdamanii]

The entirity of the discussion here is that it takes 14 ms for a nerve cycle to cause a finger to pull and release the trigger. That is the average. Now, when we factor in neromuscular factors (motor unit recruitment, coordination) we add to that time significantly. We further add to the time by needing the muscles to move and complete their action. "Muscle memory" could theoretically be a factor of increasing returns in this case (increasing the electrical "prime" of the muscles for a familiar action through psychological stimulation), causing a slight decrease in the time needed to activate the required motor units.

Additionally, that impulse is not a spinal reflex, rather a conscious thought, so it must travel from the brain to the motor unit, and feedback must travel back, further increasing the time required.

Not to mention we are creatures of reaction...we need reaction time. That takes time to process something in our heads as well.

All said and done? Lots of things limit us to about 20 BPS max right now, not the LEAST of which is our neurological impulse speed, but the time it takes the rest of the body to create and react to that impulse.

[AzrealDarkmoonZ]

Although given enough time and practice with the movements of walking the trigger, couldn't it become almost instinctive. I forget the exact phrase since Nueroscience was 1.5 yrs back but when the nerve impulses only travel to the spinal cord much like people in response who have finely honed reflexes that outperform mst others do to the repetition. Will break out the book tonight...

Az

[karphead]

Since you're all talking reflexes, this might be applicable: Reflex Tester

However, a mouse click is longer than a trigger pull on most guns

[robdamanii]

Originally posted by AzrealDarkmoonZ
Although given enough time and practice with the movements of walking the trigger, couldn't it become almost instinctive. I forget the exact phrase since Nueroscience was 1.5 yrs back but when the nerve impulses only travel to the spinal cord much like people in response who have finely honed reflexes that outperform mst others do to the repetition. Will break out the book tonight...

Az

The name also escapes me, but its adaptative.

I suppose it's possible, but some reasearch on it would be interesting.

[MrWallen]

Originally posted by karphead
Since you're all talking reflexes, this might be applicable: Reflex Tester

However, a mouse click is longer than a trigger pull on most guns

NOOOOOOOOO, we AREN'T talking about reaction time, though it is a bit related to the topic, it is not the focus!!!!!