Interesting PBN thread on the HammerHead

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  • davidb
    Understandable
    • Jul 2001
    • 555

    #61
    This is actually a response to something I saw in the PBN thread, but as I am not a member there, I am going to post it here.

    Somebody said that they had a hard time believing that the relatively thick fill in a paintball would not move nearly in unison with the shell (what was actually said was a little less intelligent, but that was the gist of it).

    The counterexample for this that popped into my head when I read it was this: Picture a piece of paper with.. lets say.. a rock sitting on top of it. If you pull on the paper, the rock slides along on top of it. Give it a good yank, though, and the rock will stay in pretty much the same spot as the paper slides out from under it.

    That kid talking about how he disagreed with a lot of Newton's "ideas" or whatever was an absolute riot.

    As for making a paintball "accurate", the best way I can think of to illustrate the futility of the effort is to picture water as the fluid instead of air, since the effects are more obvious. You know how when you drop something into water it doesn't go straight down, unless it is either quite dense or well-shaped aerodynamically? Try the same thing with more of the same object, and they will behave differently than did the first. No matter how perfectly you drop them, no matter how identical each one is to the one before it, their behavior on the way to the bottom will be quite different. The only way to increase your likelihood of hitting the same spot would be to either increase the velocity of the object, or change the object itself to be denser / more aerodynamic.

    I can't say that I've ever even taken a physics class (well, not for more than a week or so), but this seems like common sense to me. A rare virtue, common sense..
    Your head asplode!

    Comment

    • cledford
      Registered User
      • Feb 2001
      • 1386

      #62
      Originally posted by davidb

      The counterexample for this that popped into my head when I read it was this: Picture a piece of paper with.. lets say.. a rock sitting on top of it. If you pull on the paper, the rock slides along on top of it. Give it a good yank, though, and the rock will stay in pretty much the same spot as the paper slides out from under it.


      As for making a paintball "accurate", the best way I can think of to illustrate the futility of the effort is to picture water as the fluid instead of air, since the effects are more obvious. You know how when you drop something into water it doesn't go straight down, unless it is either quite dense or well-shaped aerodynamically? Try the same thing with more of the same object, and they will behave differently than did the first. No matter how perfectly you drop them, no matter how identical each one is to the one before it, their behavior on the way to the bottom will be quite different. The only way to increase your likelihood of hitting the same spot would be to either increase the velocity of the object, or change the object itself to be denser / more aerodynamic.
      Freaking GREAT examples!!!!

      -Calvin
      Last edited by cphilip; 01-14-2004, 12:52 PM.
      From a poster at PB Nation:

      ""Jim, back to your cave. Bob Long is on the batphone..."

      MY FEEDBACK

      Comment

      • davidb
        Understandable
        • Jul 2001
        • 555

        #63
        Originally posted by cledford


        Freaking GREAT examples!!!!

        -Calvin
        Gil: You can really go places in the real estate business. Hehehe. Feel free to use that one.

        Homer: What one?

        Anyway, thank you very much, that feels pretty good coming from someone like you, and uh.. feel free to use that one.
        Last edited by Army; 01-15-2004, 06:28 PM.
        Your head asplode!

        Comment

        • davidb
          Understandable
          • Jul 2001
          • 555

          #64
          Originally posted by davidb

          The counterexample for this that popped into my head when I read it was this: Picture a piece of paper with.. lets say.. a rock sitting on top of it. If you pull on the paper, the rock slides along on top of it. Give it a good yank, though, and the rock will stay in pretty much the same spot as the paper slides out from under it.
          I thought about using the "And the flowers are still standing!!" trick, but changed my mind for some reason.
          Your head asplode!

          Comment

          • hitech
            Not a shedder of vortices
            • Nov 2001
            • 4775

            #65
            Originally posted by cledford


            Freaking GREAT examples!!!!

            -Calvin
            PERFECT example (the dropping stuff in water)! The equations are the same for water or air. The numbers are just different (as water is denser). I will have to remember that example!
            Last edited by Army; 01-15-2004, 06:29 PM.


            Hey Hitech your starting to sound like me! - AGD
            Hitech is the man.... :eek: - Blennidae
            The only Hitech Lubricant

            Comment

            • davidb
              Understandable
              • Jul 2001
              • 555

              #66
              TK needs to bring out a barrel that uses "Vortex Shedding technology". Them babies will sell like hotcakes.

              Thanks hitech! Funny thing is, I didn't go to bed last night.. Apparently I do my best thinking when I'm stupid.
              Your head asplode!

              Comment

              • Miscue
                Super Moderator

                • Oct 2000
                • 7105

                #67
                Originally posted by davidb
                As for making a paintball "accurate", the best way I can think of to illustrate the futility of the effort is to picture water as the fluid instead of air, since the effects are more obvious. You know how when you drop something into water it doesn't go straight down, unless it is either quite dense or well-shaped aerodynamically? Try the same thing with more of the same object, and they will behave differently than did the first. No matter how perfectly you drop them, no matter how identical each one is to the one before it, their behavior on the way to the bottom will be quite different. The only way to increase your likelihood of hitting the same spot would be to either increase the velocity of the object, or change the object itself to be denser / more aerodynamic.
                Yup, this is inline with my pachinko machine idea.

                Comment

                • cledford
                  Registered User
                  • Feb 2001
                  • 1386

                  #68
                  Originally posted by hitech


                  PERFECT example (the dropping stuff in water)! The equations are the same for water or air. The numbers are just different (as water is denser). I will have to remember that example!
                  Actually the numbers aren't all that different when you considered the mass of a paintball... Water is denser then air and rock more so then a paintball but you get my point, it's like the old "bumble-bee isn't flying, he's swimming" thing.

                  -Calvin
                  From a poster at PB Nation:

                  ""Jim, back to your cave. Bob Long is on the batphone..."

                  MY FEEDBACK

                  Comment

                  • fallout11

                    #69
                    That is a brilliant analogy! Nice work, DavidB!

                    Anyone else every play the "Drop coins in a tank of water and hit the target to win" (usually charity-related) game?
                    I've seen these around for years.
                    There's one at my local Taco Bell restaurant, to raise money for the Lions Club or such. Hit the target and win a burrito.
                    Same concept, illustrated perfectly.

                    Comment

                    • SlartyBartFast
                      The Flying Scotsman
                      • Jun 2002
                      • 2940

                      #70
                      Originally posted by fallout11
                      Anyone else every play the "Drop coins in a tank of water and hit the target to win" (usually charity-related) game?
                      But to relate to paintball, someone would have to try the same thing with something spherical. Perhaps marbles.

                      What would the equivalent required speed be for a marble weight/size, water viscosity to be equivalent to a paintball in air?

                      Comment

                      • cledford
                        Registered User
                        • Feb 2001
                        • 1386

                        #71
                        Should be an easy thing to figure out for someone with the correct background. Find out the relative density of a paintball to air, then find a material that has the same ratio to water. I think you would also need to determine the cross section of a paintball and size you water item in a fashion proportionately equals the same. I guess to put it little plainer you need something that not only resembles the relationship of the mass of a PB (in air) to put into the water, but you need something that will resemble the aerodynamic properties as well.

                        I'll make a post in DB to see who can help.

                        -Calvin
                        From a poster at PB Nation:

                        ""Jim, back to your cave. Bob Long is on the batphone..."

                        MY FEEDBACK

                        Comment

                        • fallout11

                          #72
                          At "room temperature" (25 deg C, or 77 deg F):
                          1) The density of water is 0.997070 grams/mL.
                          2) The density of "air" is .001239 grams/mL.
                          Note that 1 mL = 1 cubic centimeter
                          This means water is roughly 804 times as dense as air.

                          A paintball weighs 0.116 oz, or 3.228545 grams.
                          An average size paintball is 0.689 inches in diameter, or 1.75006 cm diameter.
                          The volume of a shere is 4/3*Pi*Radius cubed.
                          Thus, a paintball has a volume of 2.806451 cubic centimeters (or mL).

                          Thus, a paintball's density is: 3.228545 grams/2.806451 mL =
                          1.150401 grams/ml.
                          This is 929 times as dense as air, and 1.15 times as dense as water.
                          A paintball should sink slowly in water....and they do.

                          Hope that helps some.

                          Now, what was the original question?

                          To be an analogy to moving a paintball through the air at 300 fps, you'd need something that was 929 times as dense as water, roughly the same size as a paintball, and then move it though the water at 1/800th the same speed, or 22 feet per MINUTE. Very heavy, very small, and very slow.
                          Ideas?
                          Last edited by Guest; 01-16-2004, 07:12 AM.

                          Comment

                          • Miscue
                            Super Moderator

                            • Oct 2000
                            • 7105

                            #73
                            My gut feeling is that the math does not allow there to be a proportional relationship... well, at least not a linear one.

                            Comment

                            • RRfireblade

                              • Jun 2002
                              • 5103

                              #74
                              Easiest way to figure it out.......GO SHOOT PAINTBALLS!!!!!

                              Or something similar.
                              Logic Paintball Forums
                              My A O Feedback Here
                              Other Feedback Here
                              If I've Been Any help
                              Please Leave Some. :)

                              Comment

                              • cledford
                                Registered User
                                • Feb 2001
                                • 1386

                                #75
                                How a about determining the correct size of a lead sphere required to simulate the aerodynamic relationship between the PB and air in the water, then make that sphere. Then determine how over weight it is and remove (drill or otherwise excise) the correct volume to get things right weight wise, then fill said hole with wax or plastic - reducing the weight, but retaining the proper shape/flow characteristics?

                                Or, we could use something denser then water to simulate the air - like a heavy weight oil.

                                -Calvin
                                From a poster at PB Nation:

                                ""Jim, back to your cave. Bob Long is on the batphone..."

                                MY FEEDBACK

                                Comment

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