ok, I ask you. Whats with all the "speed" threads?

[Woogie12]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
Trust me, my playing ability doesnt have anything to do with this I dont cheat, I keep my debounce perfectly legal, but I can without ANY problem hit beyond 14bps, no problem.

I'm the same deal, but I shoot a speed and I have tried day after day to find bounce just to mess around. I can not bounce it.

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
Trust me, my playing ability doesnt have anything to do with this I dont cheat, I keep my debounce perfectly legal, but I can without ANY problem hit beyond 14bps, no problem.

Well then you shouldn't really be concerned then.I feel a properly applied cap of some sort,if done right,will give the edge BACK to us.

Jay.

[Nick O time]

i totally agree with you Squid. and the forcefeed loader ban would be retarded because of the reasons already stated. i love all of my guns and just because some people can't shoot as fast, don't wanna get lit up, can't afford it, or whatever doesn't mean they should put a cap on it. its just a big pain in the arse to put a bps cap on stuff imo. i love speed, speed is my friend.

[Quickling]

Here is my beef. In rec play. Tourney is a different beef...

Think back to 98-00 when the "super-guns" first came out. Mags and Cockers ruled. Angels and shockers were still new. At the end of a days play of rec most everyone went home happy.

I took a break until 2003.

Now I see kids with shockers that light people up so bad they go off the field bleeding and crying. I am not joking I see way more blood now then ever before. Part of it is the smaller fields, but a lot comes from 10+ hits in a bunkering move.

I surrendered a kid once and as he was walking out another kid ran up and lit him up. While the kid I surrendered had a bright pink barrel bag on and was obviously out. The kid with the E-spyder that lit him up went off the field laughing.

If you add some sort of cap you start to control the amount of over shooting the happens in REC PLAY. There is no reason that you should have to deal with over shooting in rec. You shouldn't in tournies either but most especially not in rec.

Segment the sport? Look around. How many pumpers or mech users are at your field? Enough to start another field? No.

Segmenting the sport is dealing the death blow to mechs. We will be too few and far between to play. Mech will go the way of the pump, where most of use drive 3+ hours for a game.

No we have to make one unified game that while accepting the E-gun also controls it. Maybe we should inforce stiffer penalties for overshooting. Not just your out for the next 2 minutes while this game ends... to your out for the day/week/month.. depending on offence.

I just think its sick to see a kid bragging that his first day with his new 03 shocker was also the day he made a girl start crying as the hits on her neck oozed blood. And this mentality is ever more prevalent with the electro.

[-=Squid=-]

Personally, I think in walk on play a cap or rules like that should be enforced. Im strictly talking about tournement play.

[Brophog]

I agree with most of what you say Quickling, except the segment part.

You know as well as I that their are a lot of "hidden" pumpers out there. There are a lot of people that own pumps that just dont use them because they feel they cannot keep in the open atmosphere with the high end guns of today.

Translate that over to mechanicals now. People that once had autocockers and mags are now bringing an electro to compete because they don't feel they have a chance otherwise.

I think we have plenty of pumps, mechanicals, and electros to segment the sport up, and make more money doing so.

Look at other sports. Auto racing is broken up into a hundred categories. They can do that because the cars only have to compete against like cars. If everyone was on the same turf, then one style would rule all, and their would be fewer manufacturers, distributors, retail outlets, and race car drivers.

I see paintball in a similiar situation. If we had more pump and mechanical segments, we'd have more people, more fields, more of everything. There are people out there every day that quit this sport because they don't like the atmosphere. Likewise, if we got rid of electros, there would be people that quit the sport to try other hobbies.

Why not make both groups happy? I cannot think of any other sport that is lumped all together like we are. I was just watching Winter X games. Not all snowboarders did all the snowboarding events. Not all skiers did skiing events, and so on.

Some snowboarders like trick competitions. Some like speed competitions. Others like street type courses, but not half pipes. Some like them all.

How is that any different than your average mag user that likes his semi auto, but doesn't feel the game needs to get as fast and control based as it has become with the electros? Or the average stock class player that feels 2 balls is 1 too many? Or the woods player that wants to use stealth to move around unseen?

We have a lot of different people in this sport, with different likes and dislikes. For too long now we've thought too linearly in terms of styles, equipment, and fields. Its time to branch out. There's a giant pie out there waiting to be eaten. Meanwhile, we're all fighting over the same slice.

[50 cal]

Let people shoot as fast as they want to. Just don't pound the n00bs. I've seen it done and then justified in thier mind as "If they want to play they have to learn to take it".
Every time I hear that from some jerk with the latest whiz bang Super Squirter I want to choke them out. I usually head hunt them if I can(with my Phantom).
I've drilled a guy point blank to the back of the neck to get the point across. It doesn't win me any friends sometimes, but I hate to see n00bs pounded on.

The tourney players know ahead of time what they are getting into with the high ROF guns. They have no one to blame but themselves. If they want it changed, there are enough of them to change it. If the manufacterers want it changed, they can do it on their own too.

Just one guys honest opinion.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
Personally, I think in walk on play a cap or rules like that should be enforced. Im strictly talking about tournement play.

Heck if the current rules were enforced it would be a start.

Language, attitude, wiping, overshooting....

One rule that might really change the sport is what constitutes a 'hit'. The broken paint the size of a quarter rule is fine for resolving arguments when no one saw anything. But if a ref sees balls bounce of a player, shouldn't they be called out?

All comes back to having decent refs. Unfortunately, it would seem many are much more eager to pay a small fortune in tourney fees to have a slim chance at a boatload of goodies than they are to pay a decent price for a good match and bragging rights of a title.

[DK1]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast


Heck if the current rules were enforced it would be a start.

Language, attitude, wiping, overshooting....

Truth spoken by this man!

Before we come up with new rules, why don't we try enforcing the one's we've got? I mean, if we don't enforce what we've got now... it doesn't really matter if we put a cap in. People will just let it slide like everything else.

For one, I'd LOVE to see a tourney where they actually take points off for filthy language and whining screaming teams. I've heard a lot of people say they were going to do it, but it never happens.

I know that the field Squid plays at use to have those as major problems when I played there. Whiners, and people always calling for checks just because they are shooting AT sombody. Crap that is just petty. Bad attitudes are a lot of the reason I quit playing tournies, not high ROF guns.

DK1

[-=Squid=-]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast


Heck if the current rules were enforced it would be a start.

Language, attitude, wiping, overshooting....

One rule that might really change the sport is what constitutes a 'hit'. The broken paint the size of a quarter rule is fine for resolving arguments when no one saw anything. But if a ref sees balls bounce of a player, shouldn't they be called out?

All comes back to having decent refs. Unfortunately, it would seem many are much more eager to pay a small fortune in tourney fees to have a slim chance at a boatload of goodies than they are to pay a decent price for a good match and bragging rights of a title.

AGREED! Why make MORE rules when they can barely enforce the currently enstated rules? Well said, man!

EDIT: DK1 - I agree with the penalties on sour sports. Evil Factory is the biggest whiners I Have EVER seen. At the memphis indoor they whined about every tiny thing. Eventually a player punched a refs shield. They should have been thrown out, and I am EXTREMELY glad that didnt win.

[Scircal]

Heh, wow! A thread on this subject that's finally lacking in vituperation. Wonder how long that'll last...

Anyway, I've read several of these posts over the past week, and some of the stuff I find a little surprising. The mech/rec ballers seem to be complaining that 10-year-olds are walking out on the woods field with their new-fangled Shocktech Warped Dark Demon Angel A-16, with a WAS lightning tornado sonic board and teched-in special order cheat software and apple pie maker (okay, okay, a little overboard...) that cost the same as a small car. Yeah, I've seen those kids, but to be honest, they mainly suck in woods ball and all that suped up equipment doesn't help. Sure, if you're on a closet-sized field, even with bunkers, hosing people will score eliminations. But not when you play on a couple acres with trees, shrubs, tall grass, etc. in the way. I've scored surrender eliminations COUNTLESS times on these types. I shoot a mag. Now if it's a good player with an electro, then it is a bit harder, but I've found much easier than on the speedball course. I've been stitched up plenty of times by Timmys and such on the speedball course. Rarely has it happened to me in woodsball.

Now the fields I've played at generally do a good job of separating the newbs or divying up the players based on gun speed. Heck, one field I play at WILL NOT allow experienced players to play against the newb groups unless the group gives permission. At others that only have speedball-type courses, the refs usually insist on dividing up the players based on their equipment. Are you guys telling me your fields don't do this at all? I find that a little hard to believe, but not impossible (maybe some fields don't like happy customers). But that is a problem with the field/owner/ref, not the high ROF gun, electro or otherwise. As several people have said, the fix should be in enforcing the current rules.

I do not believe in forcing manufacturers to limit BPS. However, if fields or leagues want to do it for a tourney or scenario or just do it for their field in general, I have no problem with that. People can vote with their feet, so to speak. What I find disingenuous about some of the "limit BPS" arguments is that people say it's because their first priority is safety. If that was the truth, there are at least half a dozen ways I can think of off the top of my head to make paintball safer without limiting bps, and they are just as easy if not easier.

When I started playing, I rented pumps because that was all that was available at the field. I knew a guy with a VM-68 (a.k.a. the most durable marker ever) and there was a guy who played and reffed at the field who'd gotten a new gun called (drum roll, please) the AutoMag. The pumps COULD NOT keep up, and there were plenty of people who complained about not being able to compete and it being unfair and so on. The Mag guy could snap off 8, 9 and even 10 balls a second. The pumpers were lucky to get half that. Did the Mag destroy the sport? No. Neither will high-speed electros. I also remember when nitrogen tanks were being introduced and all the safety concerns there. Those complaints eventually went away as it became clear N2 systems weren't as dangerous as initially thought.

All that said, I think additional divisions in tournaments for equipment would be a good idea. I know at least one field within a couple hours drive that has started hosting a pump-only tourney in the past couple years and it's apparently been a success. So I think this is possible, especially for mech only. At all the fields I play at, at least half the people with their own guns shoot mechs, and at least half those shooting electros shoot low-end electors (which, in my experience, don't hold up to a X-valved mag). I don't see this "mech is an extreme minority" thing, but maybe the fields I play at are the exception.

Now after wandering all over the map, I'll come back to the thread topic and a point (sorry, it's late). I don't see any reason, nor has any thread suggested a solid reason, to force manufacturers into a bps limit. If tourneys and fields want to impose a bps limit, then fine. There can be some that have the limit and others that don't. Forcing a blanket limit on the markers themselves will stifle innovation in a sport that has frankly been more innovative in styles of play and gear than any other I can think of.

[Beemer]

Anyway, I've read several of these posts over the past week,

Heh Heh Ya but did you read it all and actually comprehend anything you read

[LudavicoSoldier]

Originally posted by Scircal

Now the fields I've played at generally do a good job of separating the newbs or divying up the players based on gun speed. Heck, one field I play at WILL NOT allow experienced players to play against the newb groups unless the group gives permission. At others that only have speedball-type courses, the refs usually insist on dividing up the players based on their equipment. Are you guys telling me your fields don't do this at all? I find that a little hard to believe, but not impossible (maybe some fields don't like happy customers). But that is a problem with the field/owner/ref, not the high ROF gun, electro or otherwise. As several people have said, the fix should be in enforcing the current rules.

It really depends on the field. The ones that cater almost exclusively to the tourny baller do a terrible job of splitting up the equpiment/skill level, at least around here. Every game is a "practice" and if you want to play, you have to play with the team kiddies.

There ARE rec fields around here, and they do a great job of splitting things up. Again, depends on the fields focus.

[Brophog]

Originally posted by Scircal

Now after wandering all over the map, I'll come back to the thread topic and a point (sorry, it's late). I don't see any reason, nor has any thread suggested a solid reason, to force manufacturers into a bps limit. If tourneys and fields want to impose a bps limit, then fine. There can be some that have the limit and others that don't. Forcing a blanket limit on the markers themselves will stifle innovation in a sport that has frankly been more innovative in styles of play and gear than any other I can think of.

How about this then......because the manufacturers cannot do it themselves.

This is not a new idea. Paintball has self regulated itself for years. The serious idea of a bps limit has been around since the mid 90's, the problem has always been one of not having a central governing body to enforce it. 13 bps has been agreed to several times, only to get the wink and handshake job.

One of the alarming reasons for getting a limit under way now is the rapid speed by which we are suddenly gaining balls per second. As I said before, we've gone up almost 10 bps in 5 years. Loaders are getting ready to hit the market rated at 27 and 30, respectively. There are already markers out there cycling that fast.

I believe that 15 bps in comparison is little to ask an industry to adhere to. They will have to stop somewhere because I guarantee you there is an outside body, whether it be insurance, ANSI, or through undue legislation, that will slow us down. It would be a whole lot easier for us to self regulate ourselves, as we have done with things we did not want to do in the past.

This is a much bigger issue than trying to blame it on "keeping up with electros", or "being able to buy an electro". We have always been able to keep outsiders back through our self regulation. Being able to say we have established safe practices, and follow them, is the only thing that has kept us legal at times. There are not only countries around the world where our sport is illegal, but places in this country where it is banned. You and I may think it safe, but we're responsible adults. There are people out there everyday that have never stepped on a field, who see the sudden rise in balls per second, and see the lack of effort by the industry to regulate itself on this matter, and see the lack of integrity displayed in circumventing the "assisted trigger" rules. These are the people that will try to take this sport away from us. Some have tried every day since most of you were born. We've always been able to keep our sport safe enough to keep them back.

The injury numbers are going up fast though, and correct or not, non paintball people are correlating this with the sudden rise in balls per second.

I urge some of you to step back from this argument and re-evaluate your stance. A reasonable cap on this sport is not an unreasonable thing to ask.

[fallout11]

Up to the top, for a good, civil discussion thread (for a change!)