Dead Mans Walk

[rudy]

I'm still waiting to hear how it violates anyones trust. When done properly, you never declare yourself out. You're never removed from the game. If you think I'm out and I'm walking around with my armband on, barrel plug off and no one is coming to call me out, well, that's your fault, not mine. Pay more attention and it wouldn't happen.

If you read my post again you will see that It wont happen to me. And it wont happen to anyone who doesnt trust you which i dont. The only people it happens to are people who trust that you just want to play a fair game. IE there is no more risk in the game no interesting upsets when im playing nothing people would try to over glorify the dmw to be. there is jsut a bunch of extra people hit who didnt need to be. The other thing is just as you say if you do it "right" YOU WILL NOT EVER PULL IT OFF against any person except a person who has unfortunately trusted that you are an honest player. Are you goign to tell me that a person who knows the rules is going to miss you and your going to be able to walk up to them when every one else on the field cant even put an inch of thier body out of a bunker, and your just wide out in the open. That is how it is a violation of a persons trust. you are using signals that they associate with being eliminated, and they were nice enough to give you the benifit of the doubt.

there are hundreds of times in a day when someone forgets to put thier gun up. makes a mistake. in a perfect world that everyone seems to think the dmw is suppose to take place in, every truely eliminated player would have barrel plugs in, hand way up in the air, and armbands removed.

but in the real world sometimes people are tired and thier hands sag, sometimes they loose a barrel plug sometimes in big games youhave to walk very far to get to the dead zone, and players dont stick strict to the rules 100% of the time. and in tournies sometimes action happens fast you dotn have time to get your barrel plug in, you are in a rush to get off the field and believe it or not its a natural human reaction to tuck your body in when hundreds of paintballs are flying through the air not get put your hands all the way up so the ones that hit you sting more.

here is another real big reason im against the dmw, cause by the rules is one thing that rarely happens. Ussualy it more dirty play. DMW is usually a gun part way up in the air, they bend the rules as far as they can. If it was done right every time it would never work.

I would rather that i didnt have to shoot all these people in these circumstances jsut so a tactic like the dmw (which will never work if everythign is done correctly) can exist. Im tired of wasting my paintballs.

It isn't dishonest to say you are red, when you are blue.

It isn't dishonest play. It's trickery, deception, and surprise.

i find these quotes amussing, apparently we have a different definition of dishonest.


also i dont have a big problem with dmw in tournies if they have good refs. unless your cheating or your playing a poor guy who isnt broken in yet(and he will only make that mistake once), you wont pull it off, and in a tourney all players should have enough knowledge to understand how to get off the field correctly, as well as there should be enough refs to regulate thigns. So it bareable in that situation.

but i absolutely am 100% against this in large scenario games. or average pickup play. there is jsut too much going on, too many variables. you cant expect people to all exit a sometimes huge field perfectly and it isnt cool to have to yell at every person to makes sure they are out, then shoot everyone if they even hesitate. it can be very difficult to locate an armband, with any number of colored jersies that are baggy or guilly suits, radios or whatever people strap on to themselves.

[Tyger]

Rudy?

If I'm in a bunker, and I shoot from the right side 3 times, then suddenly, without warning, shoot from the left side, am I being dishonest?

No, I'm trying to decieve you with a tool in my "trick bag". Same goes for if I try to crawl up on you unseen. Same goes for if I lie to you about my team designation. Same goes for faking your bunker move on one side, then going around the other. So is shooting switch handed. All of these are tricks I can pull out to eliminate you.

The way paintball works is, basically, who has more tricks. The guy who can pull one more trick out of his bag before the other guy can, wins.

-Tyger

[RusskiX]

Originally posted by Tyger
Rudy?

If I'm in a bunker, and I shoot from the right side 3 times, then suddenly, without warning, shoot from the left side, am I being dishonest?

No, I'm trying to decieve you with a tool in my "trick bag". Same goes for if I lie to you about my team designation.
-Tyger

Now I'm confused by this arguement. Not all "tricks" are equal. The pro-DMW argument was supported by the fact that it is not dishonest because you still have your armband on, barrel plug out, gun is not raised, i.e. no legal requirements for elimination are being displayed.

Now I would say that flat out lieing about your team designation is THE dictionary definition of dishonesty. While it may be an acceptable, maybe even legal tactic for scenario ball it goes one step beyond DMW. DMW relies upon a trusting opponent and the OMISSION of evidence. Lieing is being dishonest and providing FALSE info when asked a question.

By extrapolation, if its OK to lie about which side you are on when directly questioned, is it now OK to say you are "OUT" when pulling a DMW and then shoot the questioner when you get in position. By condoning lieing you discredit the previous arguments that DMW is OK because you were not being dishonest.

And as for comparing either situation to shooting out different side of a bunker to confuse an opponent is just plain silly.

[rudy]

Rudy?

If I'm in a bunker, and I shoot from the right side 3 times, then suddenly, without warning, shoot from the left side, am I being dishonest?

No, I'm trying to decieve you with a tool in my "trick bag". Same goes for if I try to crawl up on you unseen. Same goes for if I lie to you about my team designation. Same goes for faking your bunker move on one side, then going around the other. So is shooting switch handed. All of these are tricks I can pull out to eliminate you.

The way paintball works is, basically, who has more tricks. The guy who can pull one more trick out of his bag before the other guy can, wins.

-Tyger

Yes you are being dishonest by its definition in all cases the reason i quoted nippinout was not really having everythign to do with my arguement but just because i truely thought it was an amusing statement read them back to yourself.

You see at the main field i play big gaes at hell survivors lieing about the color of your armband is indeed cheating. while nips field it may not be.

Deception or a lighter word we use in soccer for non cheating examples feinting is not the issue, the issue is trust, and sportsman ship, and mainly the negative effects of an allowed tactic.

in the above i ask you to look at it for what it is
DMW
Wont work unless people trust that you are out, and genuinely have a reason why you do not meet all the criteria for being a dead player. In any case other then that it does work you could have either sneaked over with no dmw tactic, or had to borderline cheat or flat out cheat to pull it off.

negative effects include the huge list in this thread.


so here is my solution if you dont believe me try it go dmw a small team. MAKE sure you are 100% by the rules, then go try it agian see try it 10 times against them and see how many times you pull it off. see how happy they are then see how many extra times your own team starts getting shot after that. and then ask yourself is doing this really positive for the game , in fact is there raelly any skill in it?

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by rudy

so here is my solution if you dont believe me try it go dmw a small team. MAKE sure you are 100% by the rules, then go try it agian see try it 10 times against them and see how many times you pull it off. see how happy they are then see how many extra times your own team starts getting shot after that. and then ask yourself is doing this really positive for the game , in fact is there raelly any skill in it?

Try it once (not against new rec players but at a tournament) and if you succeed you can tell me there is no skill to it. There is a skill to it, to not make any single of elimination, look straight foreward, marker held legally, and walk by distracted players. Its a skill, noone in the National Survival game would have ever thought that shooting 20BPS would be a skill.

If people are doing this outside of the rules, not properly signalling elimination, ENFORCE THE CURRENT RULES. The same as balls per second, enforce the current rules before you run to change them.

This comes down to the standard - oh I don't want to/can't shoot 30 balls a second so I think they should cap it lower. FYI I don't shoot 10 balls a second so I am looking at others here I do not support a cap. Don't like the amount of paint in the air, play pump.

I don't want to take the risk of a DMW so it should be illegal. Don't like the DMW get a group of friends together, or play rec somewhere where the rules make it clearly illegal. Where I play there is a gentleman's agreement that we do not DMW new players, but the tournament teams or players are all subject to becoming victim of it even in rec ball.

I can't shoot out of the left side of the bunker either, that should be illegal, as should be shooting over the tops of them.

Lets make it easier - I don't want anyone to use any skills I don't have or don't use, so everyone can only use my skillset to play paintball and anything else should be illegal.

Edit: BTW, I have never successfully pulled of a deadman's walk, I have seen it done. I mean when your out somewhere and the starting box is solid, so you walk behind it and sit down so the opponents cannot get a good count on eliminations, is that honest, is its sportsmanlike? When an opponents gun goes down and you shoot them as they are trying to fix it, is that sporting? The answer btw is yes, we agree to a set of rules to play by, and we play by them, staying inside of those rules is sportsmanship.

[hitech]

I am surprised that no one has challenged my claim that my team was the first to ever successfully execute a DWM in a tournament. Do we get that distinction?

[Tyger]

If the field rules allow me to lie, then I can do it legally. Then it become the other team who needs to step it up. There's a reason that I ask to see an armband when I ask team color! There's also a reason I ask all the players I see walking at me if they're out or not. (With the 'bad end' of my gun in thier direction...)

One other thing. Thre's a huge list of negatives to lighting up people without any 'apparent reason' too, but htat's deemed as "ok".

Look, questionable or not, if it's leagal, SOMEONE will do it. I can go back to the 90's when a chicago-based team wore t-shirts and smered their arms with vasoline. No rule said they couldn't,so they did. Then there's the "Scotchguard incident", dual pads (wearing 2 sets of elbow pads on your forearms/elbows), and so on. In each case, a rule was put into place to stop them because it disrupted teh flow of "fair gamesmanship".

All that said, the DMW is not illegal. And nobody has attempted to put a rule in place to make it so. If there was a rule in place that said, in effect, "Any player acting an a manner that appears to be of an eliminated player is eliminated." then it would make it illegal. Just as if I played at a field where you weren't allowed to lie about armband color, I wouldn't do it. I don't push rules, I just play within them.

-Tyger

[Wes Janson]

Once at Wayne's World my team was facing a line of skirmishers close to our base perimeter, and I had gone out a little ways to engage them, along with a few other players. As I opened up, my mag, the gas hog it is, quit on me. But because it did so silently, I appeared to still be playing. For a few minutes I acted as a spotter for the guy with me, but eventually I wanted to get back and get air..which was behind the enemy line. So I held my gun up, walking along the sidelines of the field, and appearing to be out. There were three people nearest to me: two behind a tree firing, and a third several feet behind them, cleaning up his gun. I tagged both of the people behind the tree, and dove for the guy on the ground. He lit me up twice in the stomach, and then we both more or less fell onto each other as the next position down the line, of two or three guys, lit up all of us quite nicely. As I walked off, one of the two kids I had surrendered went so far as to compliment how I pulled it off, and to say he had no grudge against me. We both walked off to get air, and that was that.

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by Wes Janson
So I held my gun up,

But this is a universally accepted signal that you are out. Once you have done this you are no longer making a dead mans walk per the rules.

[Nick O time]

i don't see any problems with it whatsoever. i don't see how it can be bending the rules. in a DMW the player never puts their hands up or calls themselves out they just tell the other players to stop shooting at them, and if the other players stop and he shoots them it just shows them to make sure the guy is out next time so it won't happen again.

[PsychoBaller]

A team did this at Collegiate Nationals last Spring, out in Chicago... everyone agreed it was the stupidest thing ever, despite working 2 games in a row for this certain (crappy) school.

I think it should not be allowed as it is a deceitful way to play, and doesn't show ability, only cheap tactics.

-baller

[ccaleb]

Hey, paintball is a game that can be tricky sometimes. I know I love it when I slide into a bunker and no one saw me move, and I can just pop somebody with minimal effort. You might argue that that's good play, but it's still trickery. I've had people try DMWs on me, but I don't stop shooting until I see that hand come up in the air or a ref runs over and calls them out.

In other words, it's fine with me if someone wants to try that, but until your hand goes up or the ref pulls you, I'm going to keep shooting... in other words... don't complain to me about getting lit up.

[Munky Se7en]

I think that if you get caught by a DMW its your own fault for not being completly aware of whats going on around you. I always make it a point to make sure that anything thats not wearing the same color arm band as me is either shooting or has a barrel cover on. Basically no plug or cover on your gunna catch some shots. If your aware on the field you should never fall victim to a DMW. However with this said i myself would never perform a DMW.

[sbpyro]

Deadman Walking is something that I can see being used in tourneys. (actually that is where I first saw it happen) However in rec play there no need for it.Most places that I have played at it is not allowed. The reason is that people who are legitmately out do not need to be lit up period. As bad as DMW is in a rec game, I hate the tactic of moving up in the middle of a stream of Deadmen. This past year was the first time I have every seen rec players put other rec players in the line of fire for no good reason. We were playing in a wood field and the opposing team made a rush at our location. Naturally there were casualties on their sides. What I saw next really ticked me off. The other team was advancing among the deadmen trying to get back to the staging area. They were using the deadmen as walking bunkers. Now I hesitated before returning fire. But how would you liked to be "bonus balled" cuz your teammate used you as a bunker.

[Jack & Coke]

oh man... now that is a true DMW.