AO OD - Time for something fresh.

[Riotz]

Phil, my reply was nothing against you. I don't know why you took it that way. I agree where you said companies should not over commercialize the event; hence why the quote.

I understand fully what you do with the event and how you run it. That's the way it should be and should have been here in NJ.

Yes, if companies drive down the price of the event they should get the promo. etc etc. However, companies should NOT try to control or run the events for themselves by using the AO community and AGD to promote their own products or fields.

I agree fully with you. Read all my other posts about your AO Day. They are all positive. You are setting good examples. Well done!


Shartley is right too. AO Days shouldn't be done because of politics or to out-do someone else. Although it looks like it is going that way. But eventually it will calm down.


Keep the fun in the event. Take out all the seriousness. There are plenty of serious tournaments out there to play.


Leave the AO Family events alone.

[Riotz]

Thordic's reply is the best to explain what AO Days are and should be. AO Days bring a community together to have a great time, the AO community.

Outsiders are welcome, but it's the AO family and friends we hold these events to show appreciation of a well-run well-made paintball company and products, which is Airgun Designs.

[Riotz]

Oh ya, one more thing. As Phil said, it's about getting the players money worth by getting the best deals for them. It's thier hard earned money you are spending. If a company runs an event, there is no way to get the BEST deal. Because it will be their deal or no deal.

Where as it is now, the promoters find the best deals for themselves by approaching companies and telling them "This is what I have, what is the best you can do?". Good points again Phil.

[Muzikman]

Originally posted by shartley

By golly, I think he's got it

Again, the first AO meet that I know of was the AGD super tour. This was in Nov of 2001, and AONJ hadn't happened yet I don't think. AGD had setup a tech class, factory tour, dinner for two nights and an evening of play. This was all free to the perticipant (except any paint after the first 500 balls). AGD forked out a lot of money to do this and I know did not make it all back that weekend. I do know that after this weekend, although I had talked to Tom before, I had already owned AGD products for 9 years, I had more respect for the company and since that day suppored AGD more than before. Just as Steelrat came back from AOCA with more respect for AGD, I did the same in 2001.

Since this time I have made it to as many AO events as I could and not once have I been disapointed.

People say that others outside of AO think that the AO day idea is stale and corny. If this is true, why is there talk to have a similar type day for the oldest paintball owners group on the net (POG - Palmers Owners Group).

[MantisMag]

i had a long commentary on the situation typed out but i realized that it would only lead to people becoming defensive. to the people who are unaware of the subtext ignorance is bliss. for the people that do see it what i have to say won't be any great revelation. so i'm going to leave it at this:

as long as AO Days remain in the hands of people like phil, whose motives are firmly rooted in bringing people together and showing them a good time and not on promoting themselves or turning a profit, then i think everything will be ok.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Thordic
AO Days shouldn't be loaded with media coverage, cheerleaders, and blimps overhead. All you need is some paint, some burgers, and some good friends.

You would turn down cheerleaders?



This thread has more edits then "Showgirls" did on VH1!

[Dubstar112]

How about National AO day? Where everyone gets together in thier local AO group and we all party!

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Riotz

Shartley is right too. AO Days shouldn't be done because of politics or to out-do someone else. Although it looks like it is going that way. But eventually it will calm down.

*Thump*

1stDeadeye has just fallen out of his chair! Passed out cold!



So Riotz,
Does this mean you'll come down south and play with us at Judgement Day? We are still awaiting more info from Mango.

[cphilip]

OK then I see we all agree that AO days should be run by AO. Regaurdless of size...it should be AO.

But now... How do we protect that? How do we make sure we maintain control? Should we elect a committee to approve of AO days sanctioning? The use of the name and coodinate dates and such? Or should AGD dictate this and people get permission from them? I mean they do indeed own AO. But I am certain they would not really want to Nazi this part. However I should think they would want some input and maybe even veto power. Shouldn't we make is so that we know who it is organizing or something so this can be assured its AOers that are being represented? And so that other AOers know they are not being taken for a ride or something? And perhaps so we can make sure they do not get overloaded or overdone in some areas so they are coordinated and not too much overlaping? Within reason that is!!! Well within reason. No dictators!!! Just councilors and advisors with some athority to bring people together for a compromise. A people person or persons. I wouldn't want anyone denying one if it's at all possible. Just someone coordinating them so they do not wreck each other's and attendance is good is all.

Just some ideas. Since its been brought up there is a concern for control that is. Maybe we should think about how to centralize and cooperate with them now.

[Riotz]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye


*Thump*

1stDeadeye has just fallen out of his chair! Passed out cold!



So Riotz,
Does this mean you'll come down south and play with us at Judgement Day? We are still awaiting more info from Mango.

Yep, I already told Mango that he has the support of Black Cell and myself to attend. Not sure if all the guys are going to make it or not, but we'll see as the days get closer.

[Thordic]

Phil - There was an idea floating around a couple years ago to do something like what you are saying, sorta, but I dunno if Tom is still planning on it, so I can't really say more. I think you know what Im talking about though.

[cphilip]

I think I do. I tell ya what... Let me talk to him about this and all. And see where he is coming from on it and what his wishes are. Maybe then we come back to this and do something a little more organizational for some of this.

What we talked about a while ago was more or less small start up ones should go on any time any place. Easy enough. Anyone can do one and more power too ya.

But... there should establish that the bigger ones should be pre-determined and "regionalized" and spaced out and coordinated to assist each other. And limited to one regional big event per year in each major region. "The big one" so to speak. And not to compete with each other. In fact to assist each other. Something sort along that lines was what we had discussed right? And I still feel that is best way to do it. I think Tom might agree with that as well. Let me see how he still feels about that. And then we bring this back up. Dealio?

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by cphilip
But now... How do we protect that? How do we make sure we maintain control?

We could always go the Smart Parts route and patent it. Then we could sue whoever uses it. We force a settlement and use the money to buy more beer for our AO days!

Should we elect a committee to approve of AO days sanctioning? The use of the name and coodinate dates and such? Or should AGD dictate this and people get permission from them? I mean they do indeed own AO.

Tough to do. You really can't have elections on a forum. Also, an appointed council may appear to cliquish for some. Maybe we do it the way we are now. Someone makes a post and we see what happens. Tom puts his stamp on whichever ones he wants to by attending them.

My $0.02..

[cphilip]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1stdeadeye

We could always go the Smart Parts route and patent it. Then we could sue whoever uses it. We force a settlement and use the money to buy more beer for our AO days!

hehe.... well....

Tough to do. You really can't have elections on a forum. Also, an appointed council may appear to cliquish for some. Maybe we do it the way we are now. Someone makes a post and we see what happens. Tom puts his stamp on whichever ones he wants to by attending them.

My $0.02..

Yep. Tough to do. I don't got no easy answers. There are none. But the problem is becoming real. It's perhaps something we can ignore for a while longer. Rather than deal with it before it gets more complex. But even then the solutions are not perfect. Never will be...

[Suede]

Originally posted by Riotz
When a company runs an event it's all about profits.

When a team or player(s) run it, it's about fun. No money lines their pockets at the end of the day.

The whole purpose of having a company, a business, is to make money but I think there is a big difference in how companies are run. Is the company "all about profits" or are they trying to make money without trying to squeeze every drop of blood from a person until they are as transparent as Albinonewt. (Sorry Newt, couldn't help myself. Joke, NOT flame.) I think in your posts the 'company' you are alluding to is PBX and Mel in particular.

FOR THE RECORD:

PBX just recently opened it's new indoor field PBX Battlezone which has received an overwhelmingly positive response from players (rec, tourney and beginners--not to mention parents) because it gives people a chance to play without having to cry to the bank or have to explain to the wife that the new gun they just purchased was actually a surprise birthday gift for her. (Not to be sexist here.) Unfortunately because of some of the ongoing personal issues which should have long been buried, the thread has now been closed. Paint and addmission prices at the new PBX facility charges about half of what SHOOTERS & LOOTERS charged while it owned and operated the nearest competitive indoor field. For example, $50-$60 for a case of USED paint vs. $40 for a case of NEW paint at PBX.

The rental fleet that PBX (Mel) decided to go with were level 10 mag classics with nitro systems which are rented out at the same cost at Battlezone as the Tippmanns at the other field. Do these cost more than the typical Tippmann 98? Absolutely. But some companies--and PBX is one of the VERY FEW companies that use these markers as standard rentals--believe that providing quality and performance to customers are important. Did AGD help PBX with a good deal? Ordering quantity always does, as does having a good business relationship. But AGD didn't give these guns away. AGD is also a company that is in business to make money. How else can it afford to allow Jon to travel in style in that boo-koo, me-love-you-long-time-mobile? But AGD is not out to squeeze blood either. I don't think anyone on this forum would dispute the fact that AGD has always valued performance and quality over the almighty dollar.

NJAO Day 2--This was the first NJAO event that PBX sponsored. ADG does not spend the kind of advertising dollars that other companies can and do. Mel had been in discussions with Dawn and Bill Mills of WARPIG to try to get them to attend the event. Dawn and Bill have very busy schedules and attend only big national events (regional sometimes only when it is in their backyard). So Mel took it upon himself to pay to have them flown in, paid for their hotel stay as well as giving them tickets to a Broadway show. This was money out of PBX's pocket and the costs were significantly more than the price of a couple of pounds of ground beef (in addition to all of the hard work and other expenses of preparing the field for the event). Although it was held at a PBX field it was promoted as an AGD event to introduce their new product: the Level 10 Breakout Party. I think it rather ironic sometimes when Riotz quotes Bill Mills as having said something to the effect "I've never seen so may mags on a field." because he would not have even been there had PBX not funded it. This is not meant as a plug but as a fact to counter some of the charges. This can be easily verified by contacting Dawn or Bill at www.warpig.com. If you read their article you can see that although they mention PBX it was primarily described as an AGD event. Did PBX make out like bandits? NO! PBX took a loss but you know what? It was a great day and everyone had a blast. And people respected the fact that PBX WAS'T ALL ABOUT MONEY.

As far as Riotz's comment about team or player-sponsored events being fun because they do not have ulterior motives and "money doesn't line their pockets" I would have to disagree that that is not always the case. Granted a player or team is not the same thing as a retail store (although most stores and fields are owned by them) but as Riotz himself has pointed out many times in this forum, he tries as all promoters do to get the BEST PRICES and the most FREE STUFF for the players. But DISCOUNTS and FREE STUFF comes out of SOMEONE's pockets and puts them into SOMEONE ELSE'S pockets and brings just praise to the person(s) who were able to BROKER A DEAL for the players. With the exception of SPAM, who doesn't like getting things for free? As a college student I remember going to the supermarket on weekends to sample FREE new products, morsels of green pigs-wrapped-in-a-blanket and the latest latte, half-caf samples of FREE coffee. A complete and hearty breakfast on a no-frills student budget. The fact that Riotz takes AO Day as his own personal property that he takes pride in and credit for while not "lining his pockets" is a bit disingenuous. How does a team or player get better sponsorships and FREE STUFF as well as respect from others? By offering to plug products, stores, fields, etc. This is not to say it is a BAD thing. Paintball is an expensive sport and we are all looking for ways to get a better price. By promoting these events (AO Days, Shatnerball, Tex-Ball, etc.) or any event by a different name, it benefits EVERYONE. It is a win-win-win situation for the manufacturers, the retail operators and the players. It is just a matter of HOW it is done.

I agree that the mighty dollar should not be the end-all of an event or a business. I only think that before anyone starts pointing fingers and making accusations while claiming NOT to benefit that people should know ALL the facts.