AGD Defunct???

[EZbunker]

oy

ANY special interest that goes commercial is going to change - mightily - in order to become commercial. Big dollars can't be made by selling to a few hundred or a few thousand die-hard fanatics, so in order to appeal to the masses you have to dumb everything down and play to the least-common-denominator. Then, once it begins to look like there IS money to be made, the folks who's game is adding zeros to the bank account have a vested interest in keeping it dumbed down...

Originally posted by Butterfingers


Moreover I dont think Tom likes what this industry has become. It certainly is a diffrent atmosphere than when he started AGD. The original spirit of the game is gone... Its all about big business, and pro teams now.

Everybody wants paintball to be big and expand... what nobody expected was the inevitable... commercialization. Just like Baseball, Football, and Golf. Where almost every athlete has nike gear...

[punkncat]

Originally posted by AGD
Ask yourself these two questions (like I did).

1. Can the Emag or Xmag as it is today gain market share against Timmys, Shockers and DM4's? yes/no

2. Can AGD's mechanical guns gain market share against Tippmans products in the rec market? yes/no

The obvious answer to 1 is no.This is due simply to the fact that there is a lack of market buzz on the product.I think many people here have stated this fact as well.

The answer to 2 is trickier.I would guess that AGD wishes that the answer to this were obvious.
On a quality/price standpoint the Mag is aguably the best marker available on the market right now.What is prohibative to a new player is the starting price.Even though we know that as the upgrade path is followed the same money eventually will be spent with sometimes questionable results...Its still going to be hard for mom and dad to justify spending 400$ on a new Mag vs 125$ for a new Tippy.
Even worse is the fact that so many decent E markers are breaking into the mid and low end market, that the Mag will have even more to contend with.

[Tunaman]

Originally posted by shartley

Oh contrare....The products available from AGD ARE flying out the door faster than I can get them in. There IS a waiting list right now...and its getting longer by the day. It is my gut feeling that this product could sustain for another 2 years at least. "The players"? Who might that be referring to?...because it certainly not the "spectators" that are buying them. Who cares what the pros are shooting? Its all about how much money they get paid to shoot a particular marker. It has nothing to do with anything else. AGD has JUST started to come around again...and I feel this move may beat them back down a bit. I am sure that none of us wants that to happen...again. But I certainly trust that TK has seen it all, and I will be there to sell and fix whatever product line he engineers for the future. Boy is it gonna be great.

[cphilip]

Well if you had seen the response to the Custom RT Pro I got at the CFOA yesterday you would think twice about Mechanicals making a come back in tournament play. I can feel the itch for some people to want to get away from what they have issues with. Eyes and things always going down and such. If you can give them a fast shooting mechanical with good looks and a fairly light trigger a percentage of them are ready to think about it. These are people that have owned them all. People willing to admit its not the electronics that make them shoot faster. Nor the need to shoot fast that makes them good players. I can see a trend from a percentage of older more experienced players to that end.

And least we forget the real money in numbers is not in tournament play. Its in the average joe that wants a rec marker that would not limit him if he chose to enter the every now and then tournament. There is no real other markers out there but Mags and cockers the do this for you. And people are tending to move away from the cockers for that. Too much knowledge and maintenance for them. So really the slot for Mags exists. Somewhere in the transition position. A fast shooting low maintenance marker that will do it in rec play but is capable enough to feel confident in if you wanted to play a tournament every once in a while. And now with light pretty milling and optional accessories.

Are they dead you ask? No... they are just finding their position. Feeling out their space and time.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Tunaman

Oh contrare....The products available from AGD ARE flying out the door faster than I can get them in. There IS a waiting list right now...and its getting longer by the day. It is my gut feeling that this product could sustain for another 2 years at least. "The players"? Who might that be referring to?...because it certainly not the "spectators" that are buying them. Who cares what the pros are shooting? Its all about how much money they get paid to shoot a particular marker. It has nothing to do with anything else. AGD has JUST started to come around again...and I feel this move may beat them back down a bit. I am sure that none of us wants that to happen...again. But I certainly trust that TK has seen it all, and I will be there to sell and fix whatever product line he engineers for the future. Boy is it gonna be great.

Originally posted by cphilip
Well if you had seen the response to the Custom RT Pro I got at the CFOA yesterday you would think twice about Mechanicals making a come back in tournament play. I can feel the itch for some people to want to get away from what they have issues with. Eyes and things always going down and such. If you can give them a fast shooting mechanical with good looks and a fairly light trigger a percentage of them are ready to think about it. These are people that have owned them all. People willing to admit its not the electronics that make them shoot faster. Nor the need to shoot fast that makes them good players. I can see a trend from a percentage of older more experienced players to that end.

And least we forget the real money in numbers is not in tournament play. Its in the average joe that wants a rec marker that would not limit him if he chose to enter the every now and then tournament. There is no real other markers out there but Mags and cockers the do this for you. And people are tending to move away from the cockers for that. Too much knowledge and maintenance for them. So really the slot for Mags exists. Somewhere in the transition position. A fast shooting low maintenance marker that will do it in rec play but is capable enough to feel confident in if you wanted to play a tournament every once in a while. And now with light pretty milling and optional accessories.

Are they dead you ask? No... they are just finding their position. Feeling out their space and time.

I agree with everything you said.

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by AGD
Ask yourself these two questions (like I did).

1. Can the Emag or Xmag as it is today gain market share against Timmys, Shockers and DM4's? yes/no

2. Can AGD's mechanical guns gain market share against Tippmans products in the rec market? yes/no

Now remember, we are not changing the name of AGD, we are not dropping our valve system and you still have a Hyperframe option. If the industry issues come under control we will get going on another e-gun. I don't expect you to wait but then again you never did anyway. All of our customers own other guns.

Even though you see very few of our e-guns in tourney play, everyone is saying we are foolish to not produce it. Does that really make sense?

AGD

The answer to both is no, not market share, but sales can remain steady. There are far too many options out there, and far to many uneducated consumers, or consumers who want to "look" cool for you to gain much in market share. BTW, changing the mag, making a panther style gun, is not going to change this. BTW, is this vast increase in market shares, having to produce more guns, what you want? It seems to me you were producing to sales, or even under.

I see more of your e-guns in tourney play (local) than you would expect.

Let me compare this to the car brand Volvo, and the stereotypes around it. Remember the old square 240 Volvo. This was always a workhorse, known for safety, known for reliability, known for longevity. Volvo sold what it produced, not a ton, but there target was the educated consumer who would research a product and choose the "best" not someone who would buy something for looks. A volvo district rep flat out told me (laughingly) there target with the 240 was the college professer with the leather over his jacket elbows. They sold all the could produce, they built a reputation, and they could still sell those ugly battle tanks today were they to produce them.

Now Volvo makes cars with turbos (one with a top speed of about 180MPH) and an SUV?? and has to beg the public, well really its old consumers, to beleive its safe. Sure its an SUV, the market looked like it needed and SUV, but its old buyers are not running out to buy it. They changed demographics, with that, with the S series of vehicles, frankly with the 740 on up. BTW, the 740 had issues, issues that lost them many of the loyal consumers who jumped from the 240 to it, many of the loyal consumers did not even jump. The C70 convertible, hyped like mad, remember the movie "The Saint" and all the advertising around it. Guess what, it sat on the show room floor, because it did not appeal to the "loyal" market and it had a Puegot engine in it, which al the volvos with Puegot engines have had issues.

The e-mag appeals to me. Its durable, rugged, I like the simple looks, and even if electronics fail (I don't trust electronics, its why Im slow to go to a warp, I trust gravity backup on my non force fed hoppers) I'm still in business. Thats why I don't have a hyperframe on my RT mag (would have been cheaper than buying a whole new e-mag).

So some people don't like it. Mention the '03 shocker to people, some don't like it for various reasons, ditto cockers, angels, vikings, matrixes, impulses, and nearly every other gun out there. The trick, I beleive, as a manufacturer, is to aim for your market, and try to steal some of the other markets - don't aim for the other markets and just hope your market follows you.

I am just concerned as to what direction you are going with this, are we no longer going to be the durability and the depedability that so many of us have come to trust in AGD? Are we designing to the hype of the shocker? Then, after all of this, I have to add. It is your company, your money, do whatever you see appropriate with it, even if we don't like it. I just hope, that what yuo feel like, is designing a gun with hi tech science in mind, rather than the hype of magic elves.

[Steelrat]

The buying public has traditionally shown a preference to cost over quality. I don't see how the paintball market will differ.

I hope eliminating the X isnt going to have too much impact on AGD. I dont think AGD made a lot, if any, profit on it, but it served as a "halo" product, directing people towards the brand, if not the Xmag itself.

[painball]

Logically the only thing AGD can do to put up a fight is to drop the mag name. It has been overused and abused for too long low. The stereotype added to it doesn't help business either.

Once the electro battle dies down Tom can release something revolutionary. I am one that likes to believe there is an undiscovered idea just waiting to explode. Tom is always thinkin up something new.

By the way, this thread tempts me to ditch my Angel and get an E-Mag. I need to show some AGD spirit...and shoot something that actually works.

[Chronobreak]

yo

ok screw elctros time for the mech revolution WHOS WITH ME!!.............................................. .....................:/

[CaptaiN_JacK]

this has to be the most depressing thread in this forum ever. AGD will come out with a better gun, they arent going to go under. loyal customers will always be there for them.

[Chronobreak]

weird.................i was under the impressin agd HAD the best gun already hence me owning two

[Crimson_Turkey]

I thought all we needed was to get a big 2 page full color ad in APG that blabbers on and on truthfully about how great the x-valve and HES are. I swear, most newbs I know want whatever gun had the biggest picture in APG.

[OysterBoy]

Thats funny, how come a local shop here in Canada just updated their shop with E-Mags, X-Mags, and many other AGD shtuff:

http://www.shop.sofpaintball.com

same with:

http://www.paintballgear.ca/catalog/default.php?currency=CDN&page=1&osCsid=909d793211bd52f0ea3a553107beeddc

...hmmm....flatline, intelliframe, RT Valve...?


Food for thought (but tastes better when orally ingested)

[WARPED1]

Re: oy

Originally posted by EZbunker
ANY special interest that goes commercial is going to change - mightily - in order to become commercial. Big dollars can't be made by selling to a few hundred or a few thousand die-hard fanatics, so in order to appeal to the masses you have to dumb everything down and play to the least-common-denominator. Then, once it begins to look like there IS money to be made, the folks who's game is adding zeros to the bank account have a vested interest in keeping it dumbed down...

YES! Obviously you're not a zombie!

[Brophog]

I have to disagree with a lot of this. I live in the middle of Kansas, and if I'm seeing this drastic change in the rec scene towards high speed and electros, I can only imagine what it may be like on the coasts.

The fact is, more and more fields are getting smaller, and more people are shooting more paint. I don't have a problem with this as my experience and unique skills can overcome it. However, I see it all the time, a frustrated kid or first timer that is just feeling bullied because he has a mechanical.

The fact is, mechanicals are going the wayside. I don't agree with it, or like it, buts it true. The electros are becoming cheaper, with cheaper alternatives available from traditional entry level manufacturers. As I said earlier, the occasional rec player now must buy so much crap in order to compete enough to have fun, that your elminating your budget market.

I like what Tom's doing. It may be premature, but we don't know all the facts either.

I think we need to seriously look at the bigger picture, outside of AGD. The game has changed, its focus has changed, and that means its market has changed. You must be willing to respect that.