The NJ AO DAY Picture and Story Thread!

[Knightbreeds Finest]

nitehawk- No i didnt! ugh...men lol j.k

[Thordic]

Couple comments:

First off, Dead Cell reffing their own games might be a mistake, but to their credit, playing against them, there was NO issue. Dead Cell players immediately left the field when they got hit. They played as honestly as anyone could ask for.

Secondly, there was a misunderstanding between NiteHawk and the ref. This much is clear.

My viewpoint is this. No matter WHAT a ref / player / spectator says, there is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE FOR SHOOTING A PLAYER AFTER YOU HAVE BEEN ELIMINATED!!!!

I don't care if the ref says "hey, I want everyone at the field to run out here and kick this guy square in the balls". That does NOT give you permission to shoot him. Heat of the moment my ***, there is no excuse for shooting another person out of anger. I would rather see people throw their gun than shoot people in anger.

Now I know NiteHawk is a respected paintballer from way back, who has lots of friends, but that doesn't make what he did acceptable.

I won't say that the Dead Cell ref isn't wrong for saying what he said (assuming that is what he said, people have a tendency to hear what they want to hear in the end when all is said and done on both sides of the situation), but if there was an issue with what he said, it should have been taken care of OFF the field, with the head ref.

Thats just my two cents.

[niteHawk337]

Originally posted by JEDI




I dont get it. Is this the same "great guy" that turned around and shot a ref 3 times because he asked him to step off the feild...

*blah Blah Blah... cut for brevity*

Y'know, I was going to let it drop and do this on a forum, but since you brought it up.


Reffing isn't just calling a player out.. it's also a safety issue.. they are there to make sure that the player as having fun in a safe enviroment, and if something goes wrong, to take chage, and to prevent injury from happening.

The tourney was for fun, and for the most part, everyone took it as such.. some didn't.

FOr my part, I should not have shot him... let me say that again, I should not have shot him. I heard what I heard, and had several people that I do not know come and tell me they heard the same thing.. these were people that were pretty close, and as a matter of fact started to come onto the field _before_ I shot Jeremy to say something to him about the inappropriatness of it.

ANyone who saw me during that game, saw me take a shot to the head, and rock backwards (I was on my knees). They also saw me put my hand in the air, and if you were close enough heard me tell Jeremy that I was a bit loopy. His resonse was to stand on the side, and repeatedly tell me to get off the field. TO the point, where I beleive (it's a bit foggy) I said something along the lines, that if they shot me it would be my fault, but I wasn't able to move off the field.

When his teammates wrapped, he said, "He's on the field, shoot him". That's what I heard, that's what others heard, but seems not what he beleives he said... only he knows what he actaully said, and I don't trust the source due to the circumstances.

A ref's job is saftey.
When he heard what I said and he did acknowledge what I said, he should have covered me until I was a little more about my wits. Jeremy did not.

Jeremy was reffing his own team. He could have very easily called off his teammates. He did not.

Due to Jeremy's lack of action, and the lack of action by any of the other Ref's on that field to mve quickly, I could have sustained more of an injury then the minor concussion that I did. DO I blame the other refs? Nah... frankly the blackcell guys were running around all day making the calls and getting in the line of fire.. it's that some of the other guys decided they could call a game from the sidelines, and those were the guys next to me.

As for the rest of the Deadcel guys.. whomever was actually playing us, came around on me, saw the situation and did NOT fire... I give them a lot of credit, and would not have blamed them if I had gottn bonus balled.. but I didn't, that show good control.

This was a "for fun" tourney, with the very real possibility of having younger inexperienced players on the field.. had this happend to one of them, Knightbreed, Mel, etc.. could have been put in a bad situation. The field or promoter has a duty to provide a safe enviroment.. this proves that it was not, as the refs were not trained.

niteHawk
Lee S Szolusha

[JEDI]

Originally posted by Automaggin2



I was standing no more then 10 feet from the ref. The ref said "Grt off the field" and Nite hawk said "Let me regain myself, i just got shot in the head" and the ref yelled "keep shooting him if he doesnt get off the field"

Hmmmm.....

niteawk lost his temper, and I would have done the same. And why was DeadCell reffing there own games in the tournament? I was floored when i heard it was a Deadcell player reffing a Deadcell game. Even the guys from American paintball Supplies were complainging about that.

by the way, Nitehawk checked into a hospital later on that day for a concussion.

Ok, so you are condoning shooting at referees. Regardless of anything else that went on, you're saying its ok that he shot at a ref?

Let me respond to a few of your points:
1. No matter what it is the ref said, it's part of the game. If you dont get off the feild, or somehow signal you're hit, you're going to get shot more. If I'm unclear about a players illimination, I will keep shooting him. If you dont like being sacked, dont play quarterback.

2. Why was Deadcell reffing they're own games? Because no one else stepped up to help out. This was not a Deadcell event. We didnt HAVE to ref, but we certainly werent going to duck out of a tourney. There were at least 2 other Blackcell members reffing while we played. Everyone seemed to agree that the refs did a fair job. Can you point out one time that an unfair call was made in Deadcell's favor? No, I dont think so.

3. I was the player that shot Nitehawk. It was from at least 20 - 30 feet away. One shot to the goggles. If he was so stunned after this, why did he continue to play? Give me a break. I've been shot in the back of the head several times, and made less of a stink. Concussion? What ever. I dont feel sorry. Again, if you cant deal with the possable results of a game, then dont play it.

It sounds more like this guys ego was stepped on, amd instead of dealing with it respectfuly, he lost his cool, and made it more dramatic.

I'm not going to argue, or attempt to rewrite history, but one fact remains. Shooting a ref is not acceptable. If you think this action was ok, maybe you need to step out of this friendly environment.

Losing your cool, and starting a fight at a friendly event is not acceptable. Maybe next time he should not be invited back.

[ogre55]

Originally posted by CasingBill
This stuff is just getting way out of hand. Really takes away from the fun of paintball when people start bringing their own agendas. This is just a game, lets keep it that way. I know some people can be jerks, but who cares. We all just want to have fun. Shoot the jerks and move on. There are much more important things to worry about in life. There should be a limit to what is posted here. My .02 cents.

I second that motion.

This whole thing (between Mel, Dayspring and Riotz) seemed to have started (at least the online end of it) on my team's boards yesterday. After checking the posts and trying to ignore it for a while, in hopes that it would go away, we politely asked that all parties concerned take this conflict, which had nothing to do with us, to a more approprite venue. That seems to have done the trick, at least there.

On a lighter note, for all of you who dropped by yesterday to say hi, thank you, it's nice to be appreciated.

Ogre

[1stdeadeye]

Fun Day

It was a really fun day and would rather not spoil it by all of the fighting popping up.

As for the NiteHawk/Deadcell thing. It was hot, you had a dazed and concussed player. Words were exchanged..it happened. I am sure both parties would have done things differently if they could. They can't. I would hope we could let this die now.

Riotz/Mel/Dayspring I am truly sorry that you all seem to be having a parting of the ways. All three of you were nothing but nice to me at NJ AO III. You all made me feel more like a family member then some forum member! I hope you can all at least part as friends, because losing a friend really sucks.

NJAO III rocked!! I hope next year will only be bigger and better!!

*Besides, this was AO. We needed a little drama!

[niteHawk337]

Originally posted by JEDI


3. I was the player that shot Nitehawk. It was from at least 20 - 30 feet away. One shot to the goggles. If he was so stunned after this, why did he continue to play? Give me a break. I've been shot in the back of the head several times, and made less of a stink. Concussion? What ever. I dont feel sorry. Again, if you cant deal with the possable results of a game, then dont play it.

It sounds more like this guys ego was stepped on, amd instead of dealing with it respectfuly, he lost his cool, and made it more dramatic.

I'm not going to argue, or attempt to rewrite history, but one fact remains. Shooting a ref is not acceptable. If you think this action was ok, maybe you need to step out of this friendly environment.

Losing your cool, and starting a fight at a friendly event is not acceptable. Maybe next time he should not be invited back.

a - it was not the gogles.. would you like to see the welt on my temple?
I fell back, and had the gun on the ground right after that shot... define "continued to play" better yet, find someone who was watching the game to tell me that I took a shot after I was hit.

b - read my other post - I had no issue with you guys, nor would I have had an issue if I was bonused on the way to the flag staion.. in the contet of a game, you do what you do to win, and making a decision like that is a quick thing.

c - that being said, I do have a problem with you. Frankly, you have no idea what happened except what YOUR teammate said to you. Suck it up, this doens't concern you at all, and Im not really interested in what it sounds like to you. WHo asked you to be sorry for me?

[Movie Guy]

Originally posted by JEDI

For the record- NightHawk was shot in the head while on the 30 or 40. Admittedly this is a traumatic thing to go through. While he seemed a bit dazed, the ref (Jeremy) told him step off the feild before you get shot again.

Clip..

When someone takes a shot to the head, especially on a day when people are having issues with hot guns, the ref should have stopped play.

If a player expresses the fact that he is in distress, it is up to the ref to address the issue, and to cover the injured player. For a ref to say, "Oh just get up and walk off the field," is irresponsible and is just downright dangerous to all those who were on the field. Maybe you don't understand the severity of a blow to the head, but any time a player feels that they're queasy after a blow to the head, game play should be stopped, and the player should not be moved.

To give you an idea of what I mean, take a look at what the NFL (and other major league sports) has done to protect their players from taking blows to the head, and their studies about the effects of concussions on the human body. All one has to do is review the Al Toon (formerly of the NY Jets) story, and realize concussions are an injury we have not fully grasped, medically speaking.

Myself, I suffered 8 concussions in 2 years of collegiate football. Needless to say, those concussions ended my football career, and to this day I still have major issues with SEVERE migrane headaches (that can last days, and they are totally debilitating), blacking out and I'm forced to wear correctional lenses due to a blow I took to the head earlier in my career.

All that being said, and having over 17 years of paintball experience, 10 years of that being tournament experience with various teams, and in short Jedi, I find your comments highly offensive, and inflammatory.

Did niteHawk overreact? When you're in his position, I'll let you decide.

Having been there before, had I had a paintball marker, and someone said anything that resembled, "Get off the field (on your own power)," I would have probably done the same thing...especially when your blood is up, and you're semi-unconcious.

I'm not trying to excuse niteHawk for his actions, but I must say he did the smart thing. In my mind, he was just trying to mark the ref, so he'd know who to direct the complaints at, when he brings the issue to Mel, AGD and anyone other event sponsor/promoter that would have unskilled refs on the field.

This kind of incident can lead to very bad things, and to me, this is a very personal issue. So maybe I'm a little blinded by my rage for people who have no understanding of the severity of this issue, but how many people have to be hurt before we (as an industry) realize that the rules are there to protect the players.....abide by them....or go pound sand.

I think Palmer said it best with, "Play safe, play fair, and have fun."

It sounds to me, like there wasn't a huge concern for safety on the day in question, and having a team ref themselves? That doesn't sound fair. And it's awfully hard to have fun when you can't stand up b/c you just got hammered in the head and you're seeing stars.

Jedi...grow up man, and think before you make comments like that.

MG

*edit added*
PS - for those of you who haven't read this article, it's worth reviewing (as it's related, but not identical to this incident): http://palmer-pursuit.com/paintball-terrorists.htm

[JEDI]

NiteHawk, like I said, I wont tell anyone what they heard. I was burried in a snake. I was the one who shot you. (I appologize for the unintended pain). I came up and saw something going on, and held back any further shooting. What bothers me, is you talk about safety issues, and what the refs SHOULD have done, and the problems inexperience COULD have caused. Yet you have no problem with the fact that you displayed the only real unacceptable behavior. Anything that arrised from Deadcell reffing, was unintentional. They tried to do their best, and we tried to play as fair as we could while being reffed by our own team.

No other problems seemed to come up all day as a result of Deadcell reffing, so I refuse to believe their actions were sub par.

You're intentional actions were the only thing that could have caused anyone any real problems. Should Jeremy have acted differently, and taken your actions as a direct assault, then you, the feild, the promoters, and Mel would all be in trouble.

[GeoffreyInNJ]

This whole thread makes the workday seem to fly by so much more quickly. It's much more interesting than creating network user accounts or changing backup tapes. lol

[niteHawk337]

Originally posted by JEDI
Yet you have no problem with the fact that you displayed the only real unacceptable behavior.

Read over my post AGAIN. I have never said what I did was right.

No other problems seemed to come up all day as a result of Deadcell reffing, so I refuse to believe their actions were sub par.

That is your perogitive. As I said, I only know what was discussed in the staging area... some people had issues, and choose not to bring them up as it was a "for fun" day

Should Jeremy have acted differently, and taken your actions as a direct assault, then you, the feild, the promoters, and Mel would all be in trouble.

Um... I am going to take that as friedly advice. I have already spoken to my lawyer about the incident, and while he agrees that I may be exposed to battery (not assult) charges, I would be well within my rights to bring up a suit against the promoters, Mr. Bridge, and the field for saftey violations... however as I think that was a bit excessive, and really see no use in it, I declined. If Mr. Bridge would like to press charges, I can forward him my attorney's contact information.

*Edit*
Im going to agree with Geoff... but in the other way, I actually have a sevral meetings to do today, so I'm not too keen on keeping this discussion going all day. I also think that it is marring what was a pretty good thread for people to discus that day.. let's keep it as such, and drop it - unless you've got something more to say that needs to be done in a public forum, you are more that welcome to bring it to PMs...

[NJPaint]

Originally posted by JEDI
[B]

Ok, so you are condoning shooting at referees. Regardless of anything else that went on, you're saying its ok that he shot at a ref?

Say I was reffing a game and I told players to shoot at you after you were out, would you be mad at me? Nitehawk never complained about being shot maybe a few extra times. It was the fact that the ref TOLD players to keep shooting at someone who was on the ground and obviously wasn't playing.

Originally posted by JEDI
[B]
1. No matter what it is the ref said, it's part of the game. If you dont get off the feild, or somehow signal you're hit, you're going to get shot more. If I'm unclear about a players illimination, I will keep shooting him. If you dont like being sacked, dont play quarterback.

Never been contested, see above.

Originally posted by JEDI
[B]
2. Why was Deadcell reffing they're own games? Because no one else stepped up to help out. This was not a Deadcell event. We didnt HAVE to ref, but we certainly werent going to duck out of a tourney. There were at least 2 other Blackcell members reffing while we played. Everyone seemed to agree that the refs did a fair job. Can you point out one time that an unfair call was made in Deadcell's favor? No, I dont think so.

No one has brought up that the refs acted in deadcell's favor, but as pointed out, it is unethical to have a judge be partial to one side, in anything. Fine, the match won't be played unless they ref... Be upfront about it and ask the other team if that is ok. Nobody cares how honest they are. As one of the sponsers put it "its simply bad karma to ref your own games"

Originally posted by JEDI
[B]
3. I was the player that shot Nitehawk. It was from at least 20 - 30 feet away. One shot to the goggles. If he was so stunned after this, why did he continue to play? Give me a break. I've been shot in the back of the head several times, and made less of a stink. Concussion? What ever. I dont feel sorry. Again, if you cant deal with the possable results of a game, then dont play it.

Get your facts straight before you start rambling. goggles... I don't think so... Continue to play... I don't think so... He communicated with the ref and the ref was obviously aware that he was out. Does anyone else think that he continued to play on?

Originally posted by JEDI

It sounds more like this guys ego was stepped on, amd instead of dealing with it respectfuly, he lost his cool, and made it more dramatic.

I'm not going to argue, or attempt to rewrite history, but one fact remains. Shooting a ref is not acceptable. If you think this action was ok, maybe you need to step out of this friendly environment.

Losing your cool, and starting a fight at a friendly event is not acceptable. Maybe next time he should not be invited back.

Really? You must know nitehawk pretty well... You frame your arguement around an end result with out looking at anything else. Akin to "Killing is not acceptable, so cops should not be allowed to use lethal force and if they do should be imprisoned" I'm not saying that shooting refs should be condoned, but labeling someone as "evil and should not be re-invited" is a bit childish.

[Knightbreeds Finest]

Now Now Children Fight nice.

My overall judgement is that there was a huge miscomunication problem. You must realize that these things do happen. You mus remember this is the game of Paintball and there is alot of adrenalin rushing when these types of problems uccur. Everyone seems to have been caught up in the moment. What happend what not justified on either side weather your talking about the ref or nitehawk. i just hope that you all can move on and still be sivle to one another. As a wise man once said heh..."Cant we all just get along!?"

[CasingBill]

Originally posted by Knightbreeds Finest
Now Now Children Fight nice.

My overall judgement is that there was a huge miscomunication problem. You must realize that these things do happen. You mus remember this is the game of Paintball and there is alot of adrenalin rushing when these types of problems uccur. Everyone seems to have been caught up in the moment. What happend what not justified on either side weather your talking about the ref or nitehawk. i just hope that you all can move on and still be sivle to one another. As a wise man once said heh..."Cant we all just get along!?"

Wow....spell check?

That wise man you speak of is.....Rodney King???

Just tryin to lighten it up.

[JEDI]

Originally posted by Movie Guy




Maybe you don't understand the severity of a blow to the head
Jedi, I find your comments highly offensive, and inflammatory.

Did niteHawk overreact? When you're in his position, I'll let you decide.

Having been there before, had I had a paintball marker, and someone said anything that resembled, "Get off the field (on your own power)," I would have probably done the same thing...especially when your blood is up, and you're semi-unconcious.

I'm not trying to excuse niteHawk for his actions, but I must say he did the smart thing. In my mind, he was just trying to mark the ref, so he'd know who to direct the complaints at, when he brings the issue to Mel, AGD and anyone other event sponsor/promoter that would have unskilled refs on the field.

It sounds to me, like there wasn't a huge concern for safety on the day in question

Jedi...grow up man, and think before you make comments like that.

MG

Well I guess its a question of character.
I have been in this situation. I was shot 3 times at point blank range to the back of the head, at the RexPlex this past winter. The guys gun chrono'd at around 320 afterwards. I didnt shoot him, or the ref on the feild. I just got the F out of there. I couldnt see straight, and couldnt drive home.

But it never occured to me that shooting someone afterwards would make the situation right. I cant believe you guys are even saying this, and thinking you're rational. You would be laughed out of court if this was a legal issue.

If you're saying you would have done the same thing, I think thats an insult to the entire paintball community, and against everything decent, stand up players are trying to do away with. You rationalize it by saying he was trying to mark the ref? Thats the biggest bunch of bull. You say first that he may not have been thinking clearly, but then you actually think he had the foresite to think of marking the guy for later use. Thats interesting, because NiteHawk never came up with this idea.

You say it seems like safety wasnt much of a concern. Well this was a friendly day of paintball. When I play with my friends, we dont hire Pro refs, with the idea that someone might lose their temper and act irrationally.

I'm really floored that you tell me to grow up, yet to say, in the face of thousands of readers, that irrational dangerous actions are ok, because pain and dizziness clouded his mind. Wow, I gotta use that one next time I commit a non-premeditated crime.

I will even go as far to say that I'll excuse NiteHawk's actions due to the circumstances. It happens. But I am completely astounded that someone would right out say its OK, and expected.

I dont want to argue this any more. Not because I feel beaten, or cant handle it. I just dont choose to argue with people that have such an irrational way of thinking. I've been in the situation. I did act differently. I think if you polled most decent people, they would not do this either.

Regardless of any other aspects, its a clear case of 2 wrongs dont make a right.