whitewolf airsmithing...

[Flow_Tech]

^the OG..the man..the cool guy from the west..your best AGD hookup line..your best CCI hookup line..your best anodizer.

[firebanex]

Hey i got my phantom a month earleir than i expected the grey silver acid VSC 45 grip clear parts one... thanks WW.

and yes this is sending it to the top again... make you work more

[Magglerock]

^the OG..the man..the cool guy from the west..your best AGD hookup line..your best CCI hookup line..your best anodizer.

Yeah, he's the best - that's why this thread got started; because he's the best. Your business "spikes" on bad pub? Then I guess you should keep on doing what you do best; holding people's markers and not doing the job you agreed too. You're doing so well that you can't pay the bills on smithing alone, nor hire someone to answer simple email for you. Please. I know one customer you WONT get any business from; but then again, "business" would emply you doing what you say you will, which you seem to have a problem doing.
Oh, and as long as we're getting facts straight, this thread was started five weeks ago. I'm not sure you can add, so I'll do it for you. 13 weeks + 5 weeks = 18 weeks, and the job, according to you, will or won't be done when the kid gets his marker back. So yeah, 18 weeks (that's a little over FOUR months) of nothing certainly trumps my typo.

You know what's the kicker? You havn't offered this kid an appology. You havn't tried to make things right with him. You've done nothing but get defensive and try to cover your own butt. Now that's quality service! All you AOer's out there looking for friendly, timely work, look no further! You're right; there a plenty of other places people can take their work, and I suggest they do. Do us all a favor: if that crap about bad pub spiking your business is true, don't take the business. Clearly you can't handle what's on your plate as it is. Later joker.

[Magglerock]

All with out the need to advertise or whore myself on AO or any Other Forum.

You sure about that? Here's a thread you started in the dealer's forum:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=129704&highlight=White+Wolf

"Finally got my ducks in a row and got some inventory built up. Good prices on AGD parts and markers.

RT Customs in stock in various Configurations

Karta and Chord V2 body options availible

Other things of interst to AO Members:
Custom Hardline fabrication, in SS and Anodizable Aluminum.
New Small lot Ano pricing on most single color ano's
CNC Rail milling for Warp bodies and or lightening

Also a dealer for CCI and WGP

As usual email me for best pricing"

As long as we're being accurate...

[splat15k]

1. Customers DO NOT PAY upfront, I have no ones money, I am not sitting on money to collect interest or pay for vacations or buy crack. I do this for exactly the reason so people won't think I am doing any of those things. People that read the page would know this, people that like to assume...well we know what happens when that happens.

ummm...you have $599.50 of my money...

[GT]

That's rediculous. FYI, nearly 1500 people have viewed your reaction to this situation

right......

17 weeks

I see this same crap posted about WW, Doc, Punisher, coolhand, AGD, etc. I am getting so dam sick of it!Take Home message here kids: If you have to have it now, go to your local pb store or wal mart

[Magglerock]

Where is the slander? Please point it out to me. The kid says he hasn't gotten his marker in 18 weeks. WW has made no rebuttle to the contrary. In fact, he says he's going to send it back to the kid, regardless of what shape its in, i.e., whether or not the agreed-upon work is done. Now please, point out the slander. In fact, its rather ironic you would call it slander, since that's exactly what you are doing by eroneously claiming that others are perpetrating it. You're happy to wait months for work? Good. No one asked you. This kid isn't, and many others arn't either. But you're right; if he says no time frame, then that's that. But you know what? If that's his policy, then what type of idiot do you have to be to do work with him? In fact, I believe he says that work could take two weeks or TWO YEARS. That's just retarded. Peroid. And he has yet to appologize nor offer a solution to the problem at hand. He got your marker to you quickly? Good for you. What if he didn't? Would you feel the same?

And while we're at it, we arn't just talking about the work; he won't even respond to EMAIL. How is this kid supposed to know whether or not he got scammed? Maybe a sentence "not done, please wait" would have kept him happy. But WW wouldn't even give him that. If I were him, I would have filed mail fraud charges by now, and maybe he should.

[GT]

What if he didn't? Would you feel the same?

No, I wouldnt because I can read. I understand what "no time frame means" Do you? You guys are wrong, plain and simple. I certianly wouldnt go onto a public forum to talk trash about it.

since that's exactly what you are doing by eroneously claiming that others are perpetrating it.

You sure are trying your best to demean a reputation, by which you are not a party too, nor do you read the binding agreement bewteen the two, i.e unlimited time frame, the craptastical basis of your argument.

Maybe if you would have read the posts and gotten correct information you would realize it was not "13 months" as you have repeatedly said...but "13 WEEKS" but why ruin a good rant with pesky facts.

I do realize that getting anyone to come to thier senses on a web board is slim to none. I just couldnt allow you to crack on someone anymore.


You can not wait for the best, you dont desrve it!

gt

[Muzikman]

Where is the slander? Please point it out to me. The kid says he hasn't gotten his marker in 18 weeks. WW has made no rebuttle to the contrary. In fact, he says he's going to send it back to the kid, regardless of what shape its in, i.e., whether or not the agreed-upon work is done. Now please, point out the slander. In fact, its rather ironic you would call it slander, since that's exactly what you are doing by eroneously claiming that others are perpetrating it. You're happy to wait months for work? Good. No one asked you. This kid isn't, and many others arn't either. But you're right; if he says no time frame, then that's that. But you know what? If that's his policy, then what type of idiot do you have to be to do work with him? In fact, I believe he says that work could take two weeks or TWO YEARS. That's just retarded. Peroid. And he has yet to appologize nor offer a solution to the problem at hand. He got your marker to you quickly? Good for you. What if he didn't? Would you feel the same?

And while we're at it, we arn't just talking about the work; he won't even respond to EMAIL. How is this kid supposed to know whether or not he got scammed? Maybe a sentence "not done, please wait" would have kept him happy. But WW wouldn't even give him that. If I were him, I would have filed mail fraud charges by now, and maybe he should.

Well, you have obviously never have done business with 90% of the custom shops out there. Doc Nickle has had peoples guns or projects for years. This is how must custom shops operate. If the kid was not willing to wait, why did he do business with WW? Yes, I am willing to wait as long as it takes to get the job done. If this means 5 years for a custom piece, I'll wait that long. Now that the problem is resolved, why don't you just drop it!

[FooTemps]

Alright, you have a point about WW making people wait and not sending emails and stuff...

But you see, a lot of these clients are:
a) impatient and ignorant to the world of customizing
b) untrusting (due to impatience)
c) constantly bugging the customizer
d) loud mouthed and annoying
e) not understanding of the time it takes to build something (it's a pain and takes time. For example, Nicad and Arowmic took weeks to get the karta design rolling...)

and customizing takes:
a) time
b) patience
c) trust
d) an understanding that it MIGHT take time
e) PROPER communication

You see how i bolded and underlined proper? Do you want to know what I mean by proper?
okay, I'l tell you. But first I will tell you what it ISN'T. The proper way to of communicating a concern over your custom work isn't constantly bugging WW, Doc, Pun, Coolhand, Rogue, etc. It isn't writing angry emails and threats to take legal action. Notice how many people fall into the category of improperly communicating their concerns? I'm sure you did, you're a smart guy.
The right way of doing it would be to not pester the customizer, maybe an email every other week would be cool since you should understand they have busy schedules with work AND their shops. You don't have to be sending angry emails, even one or two whiney, angry emails a day is annoying. Maybe you could actually talk about something other than "is it done yet?"... you know, maybe something along the lines of "i got an idea, i might want to tweak my order a little bit, wanna talk?"... something more friendly, then maybe as a side note ask for a quick update. Be tricky about it!
You see, the reason why WW and other customizers say "NO EMAILS" is because people can't write a friendly email every once and a while (that means not every other day, or every 3 days). They got sick of flames and threats and constant pestering so they decided not to waste their time with it. Now they're caught in a bad cycle.

You're right, it is a bad practice, but what would you do? Waste 2 hours responding to bad emails, and then spend another 3 responding to good ones? That's 2 hours of your time wasted and 2 hours that could have been used to finish up projects and cut that email count down.

[Magglerock]

Well, you have obviously never have done business with 90% of the custom shops out there. Doc Nickle has had peoples guns or projects for years. This is how must custom shops operate. If the kid was not willing to wait, why did he do business with WW? Yes, I am willing to wait as long as it takes to get the job done. If this means 5 years for a custom piece, I'll wait that long. Now that the problem is resolved, why don't you just drop it!

Why? Because the guy has yet to have his marker returned with the work as promised. And you're willing to wait FIVE years? Really, five years?

Some things that take less than five years:

The construction of an average 20+ story building
A Presidential administration
The construction of your average Virginia class nuclear fast-attack sub
The construciton of a CVN nuclear aircraft carrier
The design, choice, and procurment of a next-generation fighter

Now really, are you willing to accept that a custom paintball marker should take longer than five years? Stop being silly. The kid has a problem with this guy, and the guy is being an *** about it. This is why the business-end of this industry sucks - because most of its players are too young to realize how rediculous some of the stuff that gets pulled on them is.

And while we're on comparisons, here are some things that take less than 18 weeks:

The construction of your average single-family home
The repair a car that has been "totaled"
The fighting of your average late-20/21 century war

[Magglerock]

Alright, you have a point about WW making people wait and not sending emails and stuff...

But you see, a lot of these clients are:
a) impatient and ignorant to the world of customizing
b) untrusting (due to impatience)
c) constantly bugging the customizer
d) loud mouthed and annoying
e) not understanding of the time it takes to build something (it's a pain and takes time. For example, Nicad and Arowmic took weeks to get the karta design rolling...)

and customizing takes:
a) time
b) patience
c) trust
d) an understanding that it MIGHT take time
e) PROPER communication

You see how i bolded and underlined proper? Do you want to know what I mean by proper?
okay, I'l tell you. But first I will tell you what it ISN'T. The proper way to of communicating a concern over your custom work isn't constantly bugging WW, Doc, Pun, Coolhand, Rogue, etc. It isn't writing angry emails and threats to take legal action. Notice how many people fall into the category of improperly communicating their concerns? I'm sure you did, you're a smart guy.
The right way of doing it would be to not pester the customizer, maybe an email every other week would be cool since you should understand they have busy schedules with work AND their shops. You don't have to be sending angry emails, even one or two whiney, angry emails a day is annoying. Maybe you could actually talk about something other than "is it done yet?"... you know, maybe something along the lines of "i got an idea, i might want to tweak my order a little bit, wanna talk?"... something more friendly, then maybe as a side note ask for a quick update. Be tricky about it!
You see, the reason why WW and other customizers say "NO EMAILS" is because people can't write a friendly email every once and a while (that means not every other day, or every 3 days). They got sick of flames and threats and constant pestering so they decided not to waste their time with it. Now they're caught in a bad cycle.

You're right, it is a bad practice, but what would you do? Waste 2 hours responding to bad emails, and then spend another 3 responding to good ones? That's 2 hours of your time wasted and 2 hours that could have been used to finish up projects and cut that email count down.

Excuse me, but theyare being PAID to do the work. Paid. Not free. For a fee. Part of that fee is customer service. This is how business (in every other industry, but not paintball for some reason) works. If I called up Microsoft every day and pestered them about my windows, they would still pick up the phone and at least TRY to be helpful. I didn't see anywhere in this thread or mentioned by WW that this kid was flaming him or sending him an inordinate volume of mail. He DID try and change the subject (I.E., make notice of his address change) and STILL recieved no reply. Clearly, email is part of the business. If its taking two hours a day to answer, then cut back on your workload; you clearly have to many customers. You can even set-up your account to auto-reply email with simple messages "Thanks, work still in progress, check back soon" and update the autoreply as situations change. See? How tough was that. Not very. For someone who is trying to get customers, being beligerant and telling the potential market that they are privlaged to have their service doesn't exactly motivate me to use them.

But back to the topic at hand, as this has gone of it. The guy has had his marker for 18 weeks. He wants to know what the status is. He has a right to be upset when he gets NO response out of the person holding his property. Peroid. You can defend him all you want, but you know you're wrong. If this was de regular for everyother aspect of our lives, the world as we know it would not work. Prompt, friendly service is expected. If you can't deliver it, don't be surprised when people tell you they are unhappy with it, and you promply lose business.

[FooTemps]

Okay, I see your point, I said that in my previous post...

I was just making a generalization for on a broader range of clients... You know, the ones that usually screw everything up and cause the customizers to become cranky hermits.

I agree that there should be communication, but sometimes bad things happen and they stay bad.

[GT]

Some things that take less than five years:

The construction of an average 20+ story building
A Presidential administration
The construction of your average Virginia class nuclear fast-attack sub
The construciton of a CVN nuclear aircraft carrier
The design, choice, and procurment of a next-generation fighter

And while we're on comparisons, here are some things that take less than 18 weeks:

The construction of your average single-family home
The repair a car that has been "totaled"
The fighting of your average late-20/21 century war

Wow,
I dont think it gets any worse than this. We are not talking about simple construction on ANY of those projects. The R&D takes years if not decades. Bessides the average budget for all of those projects would be in the tens of millions of dollars. How much did this mag project cost again?

PM me when you get to admin a large project, even a small home, and tell me how it goes. I can gurantee that something will get screwed up beyond belief and it will be something stupid that any moron can pick up at home depot..... but it has to be purchased through this certian account, through this vendor.......

WW's website sums it up best:
"Fast, Good, Cheap: You can pick two. (don't pick fast)"

You will find this as the industry mantra, i.e. customization.

This is why the business-end of this industry sucks

you're right,
I think the problem with the paintball industry, if we can even call it that, is the consumer. Our dealers and fields make little profit that ever translates into capitol improvements. Tell me what industry survives on this little profit margin?

[Magglerock]

Wow,
I dont think it gets any worse than this. We are not talking about simple construction on ANY of those projects. The R&D takes years if not decades. Bessides the average budget for all of those projects would be in the tens of millions of dollars. How much did this mag project cost again?

PM me when you get to admin a large project, even a small home, and tell me how it goes. I can gurantee that something will get screwed up beyond belief and it will be something stupid that any moron can pick up at home depot..... but it has to be purchased through this certian account, through this vendor.......

WW's website sums it up best:
"Fast, Good, Cheap: You can pick two. (don't pick fast)"

You will find this as the industry mantra, i.e. customization.



you're right,
I think the problem with the paintball industry, if we can even call it that, is the consumer. Our dealers and fields make little profit that ever translates into capitol improvements. Tell me what industry survives on this little profit margin?

No need to pm you. I've worked in the federal appropriations process. You know, that little thing Congress does every year to keep the country working? If a less than a 100 people can draft, debate, conference and pass a $400 billion defense budget in under four months, getting a marker anno'ed shouldn't take this long. In fact, if I recall correctly, the entire anno process takes less than two days. But again, you are completely missing the point. I don't have a problem with the time frame on SOME work, and that is not the issue of this thread as it was oringonally posted. The problem I have is that WW refuses to talk to this kid, then gets on here an moans about his business and how hard it is. Even you, who seems to have serious comprehension problems, can admit that not responding to an email denoting one's change of address is unacceptable. Furthermore, rather than appologizing or attempting to at least end the discussion with civility, WW's answer to the issue is to return the marker with or without the work done, then boast how public negative feedback is good for his business. Now that's mature, don't you think? There arn't enough smiths out there, but the demand will change that. And when it does, folks like WW, Doc, and all the others who feel the can drag *** will be in for a serious wake-up call. Oh yeah, the problem with the industry is the consumer. That is a rather illogical statement; without consumers, there is no industry, so how can it possibly be the consumer's fault? All they are demanding is prompt, complete service. Functioning markers, quality parts, and reasonable delivery times. There is yet to be a company within this industy that can do all three, and that includes AGD.

My advice to those out there needing a mod? Go to your local machine shop. That's what I do. Their turn-around time is ussually about a week. Need something Annoed? Send it to PK or another of the larger companies. Most smiths are just amatuer machinists anyway; might as well use a professional. At least they understand the word "service", and they have no option but to listen to you when you show up at their door asking about your project.