so..i just had some macroline eat my face..

[1ofkind]

Wow, I'm terrified of macroline now I have six 1 ft hoses just laying around.

I've use micro line before and never hada problem, just shows you its luck.

[-=Squid=-]

um... why is this in the paintball talk forum?? i say, sucks for you, deal with it...
-Ryan

Why shouldn't it be?

[Echo419]

ONLY US SO-NC PEOPLE WOULD ACCOMPLISH THAT

SO-NC represent.

[Flow_Tech]

Werd.

[FragTek]

Didnt take the time to read through this post so dont flame me if someone else already suggested this :)

2 things you can do.... Go get super drunk, and you'll never notice the pain. Or, go roll up a spliff and toke it down, that makes pain go away too.

If it REALLY hurts, do both of the previous things at the same time.

[Flow_Tech]

it doesnt hurt anymore..but..Frag,your option 1 doesnt seem like a bad idea

[rabidchihauhau]

Coup - glad you are not hurting any more; I had a steelbraided hose fitting fail years ago at a fill station (my fault - not paying attention to what I was doing) and the hose/fitting beat the back of my hand to death for a few seconds; the whole hand stayed numb and was only partially functional for about ten days...

On to the 'arguments'.

There are no arguments. The standard setting engineers (as in ASTM and CGA - Compressed Gas Association and the Fed's DOT) have, through long years of study, research and testing, as well as real world experience dealing with disastrous failures involving major injury and numerous deaths, have established the SCIENCE of determing proper safety practices in the engineering of all kinds of systems, including those used with compressed gasses (both high and low pressure).

In all instances, the following criteria are recommended (and in some cases mandated by law): a high pressure system must have approved safety relief valves/containment systems/visual markers, they must ONLY utilize materials and etc that have themselves been subjected to manufacturing and functionality standards and ALL components in a pressurized system MUST be built to withstand the maximum working pressure - which is determined by multiplying the intended working pressure by 4.5 and subjecting the component to that higher, or 'bursting (failure) pressure'. If the component does not distort beyond a certain percentage when subjected to burst pressure, it is deemed to be safe to use AT THE LOWER, WORKING PRESSURE.

So that means that a tank who's working pressure is 3000 psi has been tested to a burst pressure of 13,500 psi. Any components attached to that system - despite the presence of pressure relief/bleed/blowoff/burst devices - must ALSO be tested to 13,500 psi or they are not appropriate for use in that system.

The proper discussion is not about what anyone actually uses, or about whether an incorrectly used product actually works in the field, or even about whether the standard itself is a good one or not. The proper discussion ought to be: we have well-thought out standards that rely on hundreds, if not thousands of years of experiences by well trained scientists, engineers, technicians and researchers, those standards are DAILY verified and modified by real-world experience. Governments, attorneys and courts rely on those standards when making judgements. WHY isn't the paintball industry following them?

[speeddemon]

...all instances, the following criteria are recommended (and in some cases mandated by law): a high pressure system must have approved safety relief valves/containment systems/visual markers, they must ONLY utilize materials and etc that have themselves been subjected to manufacturing and functionality standards and ALL components in a pressurized system MUST be built to withstand the maximum working pressure - which is determined by multiplying the intended working pressure by 4.5 and subjecting the component to that higher, or 'bursting (failure) pressure'. If the component does not distort beyond a certain percentage when subjected to burst pressure, it is deemed to be safe to use AT THE LOWER, WORKING PRESSURE.

So that means that a tank who's working pressure is 3000 psi has been tested to a burst pressure of 13,500 psi. Any components attached to that system - despite the presence of pressure relief/bleed/blowoff/burst devices - must ALSO be tested to 13,500 psi or they are not appropriate for use in that system.

"...ALL components in a pressurized system MUST be built to withstand the maximum working pressure - which is determined by multiplying the intended working pressure by 4.5 and subjecting the component to that higher, or 'bursting (failure) pressure'."
The intended working pressure of all your air lines is 800 (assuming hp preset tank), therefore they should be tested to 3600, not 13,500. So the burst pressure of your lines should be around 3000 depending on your tanks output. Which means that macro line with a working pressure of say 1000 psi (the stuff I currently have) is safe according to you and ASTM standards.

The proper discussion is not about what anyone actually uses, or about whether an incorrectly used product actually works in the field, or even about whether the standard itself is a good one or not. The proper discussion ought to be: we have well-thought out standards that rely on hundreds, if not thousands of years of experiences by well trained scientists, engineers, technicians and researchers, those standards are DAILY verified and modified by real-world experience. Governments, attorneys and courts rely on those standards when making judgements. WHY isn't the paintball industry following them?

Yes, people need to be made to stop selling macro and such with such low working pressure ratings because it can be unsafe. Other than that, whats wrong? You don't like it cuz kids with spyders on CO2 left their gun sitting in the sun and blew stuff apart. Fine, don't use it, but don't try and tell me what I can and can't do.

Oh yeah, and I didn't know we had compressed air hundreds or thousands of years ago

[SlartyBartFast]

Other than that, whats wrong? You don't like it cuz kids with spyders on CO2 left their gun sitting in the sun and blew stuff apart. Fine, don't use it, but don't try and tell me what I can and can't do.

But that Spyder might be next to my face when it decides to blow. The owner of the Spyder ready to pay damages?

Hell, the owner should do jail time for negligence causing bodily harm. Indeed the owner of the field and the person who filled the gun should also do jail time for the same as they should have been aware of the danger and risk.

If there's a chance that you'll be jumping into a bunker with me, firing your marker at me, or otherwise handling you unsafe equipment within a 1000 feet of me or others, Damn straight we have EVERY right to tell you what you can or cannot do.

[GT]

Hell, the owner should do jail time for negligence causing bodily harm. Indeed the owner of the field and the person who filled the gun should also do jail time for the same as they should have been aware of the danger and risk.

.

uhhhh.....

You are talking about two totaly different things, Criminal v civil libility.

If there's a chance that you'll be jumping into a bunker with me, firing your marker at me, or otherwise handling you unsafe equipment within a 1000 feet of me or others, Damn straight we have EVERY right to tell you what you can or cannot do.

this type of talk/action is way more dangerous than SP ever will be. Consider, even taking one "claim" to court, wether you win or lose, insurance rates skyrockets for everyone whom is invovled in the industry. Within a year's time we find ourselves dropped kicked to the early days of pump play and outlaw fields.

To be honest this will happen at some point, however, I think it will be a ROF issue rather than an equipment failure. Anyone here the aftermath of the lady that was killed my the co2 tank?

[Muzikman]

In general, be it Macro/Micro lines, ROF, people throwing thier gun (with tank attached), etc... The sport of paintball is a dangerous one and if something doesn't happen to regulate the safety beyond the masks we wear, somone is going to get seriously hurt, and someone is going to get sued. I am waiting for the day that someone dies because a tank exploded from a flash fill, or someone throws a gun, the reg snaps off the tank and we have a 3000psi rocket. Or the day some noob loses an eye or two because that kid with the ramping board just shot him 40 times.

At the NJAO meet I heard a rumor that a guy with a tippmann got overshot and his first reaction was to remove his mask to yell at the person. We never said people were smart that play this sport, so we have to make it fool proof before some government agency makes us.

[SlartyBartFast]

uhhhh.....

You are talking about two totaly different things, Criminal v civil libility.

There's civil and criminal responsibility in filling inappropriate equipment to unsafe pressures and putting it (knowingly or unknowingly) into the hands of someone else.

The family/victim could sue for civil damages and the court could press criminal charges.

In the mean time, paintball is living in a fantasy land. It's the equivalent of wetting your finger and sicking it in a light socket a couple hundred times and declairing it a safe activity.

Then, on try 101, someone plugs it in and you forget to turn it off....

Collectively, Paintball often brags about how the game is so much safer than many other sports. It's really a marketing half-truth and self deception. Compared to the other sports, the numbers in paintball are almost statitically insignificant.

The accidents, injuries, deaths, lawsuits, and regulations WILL come. How draconian the regulations are will depend on how seriously Paintball as an industry takes safety before being forced to clean up.

[GT]

The accidents, injuries, deaths, lawsuits, and regulations WILL come. How draconian the regulations are will depend on how seriously Paintball as an industry takes safety before being forced to clean up.

Agreed (However I do not think throwing a 14 y/o kid in jail because he order crappy macro from 32*, nor pressing criminal charges),
so lets turn this into a meaningful post, for all perticipants. Two questions"

1. What should the industry do to make pb more safe?
2. What are YOU doing to insure a more safe playing environment, locally?

[SlartyBartFast]

Agreed (However I do not think throwing a 14 y/o kid in jail because he order crappy macro from 32*, nor pressing criminal charges),
so lets turn this into a meaningful post, for all perticipants. Two questions"

1. What should the industry do to make pb more safe?
2. What are YOU doing to insure a more safe playing environment, locally?

Well, there may be no criminal charges to press but if a civil suit resulted you'd name the 14 yr old kid and 32* (or whoever sold the bad equipment). If 32* (or whoever) clearly stated the limited nature of safe uses for the product, then there are charges to be filed against the kid or whoever built the setup.

As for the questions:

1- Stick to the bloody standards they set. Set more standards. Draconianly enforce the standards and train all vendors in how to inspect equipment for substandard parts. Certify technicians. Test and certify parts.

2- I make sure I know what I'm talking about and bring up infractions politely with the field owners and refs. I stay away from any involvement with the egos and tourny wannabes.

Sad to say but I'm at a loss what else I could do personally.

[rabidchihauhau]

ummmm - WRONG!

by virtue of the fact that the tank is holding 4500 psi, or 5000 psi, or 3000 psi, the pressure to use for testing is the max - 5000 psi.

The standard - which if you want to read boring legaleze I'll be happy to post - is that everything downstream be testing to the working pressure of the highest pressure rating of any component - which in this case is the tank.

If the industry wants to do different thread sizes for different pressures, fine - then you could restrict your marker to taking only 1800, or only 3000, but for the time being, since systems are intended and engineered to allow a 5000 psi tank to be hooked up to it, everything downstream MUST have a burst pressure of 5000 x 4.5.

Besides, your macro line that 'tests' to 1000 psi is only intended for 1000 / 4.5 - unless it has stamped/printed on it that its WORKING pressure is 1000 psi.

Macroline, microline and anything other than pressure tested steel braided hose WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED FOR USE WITH PAINTBALL GUNS IF THE PREVAILING STANDARDS WERE ENFORCED. Period. No arguments, no weasling around it.

I will not install it on a marker because of liability issues, I will not sell it for someone else to install for liability issues and I will not work on a marker that has it installed without first replacing the fittings and hose with steel braid. What you do after its out of my shop is your business - untill you play on the same field with me - and then its, no play until you bring the marker up to standard.

I'm really sorry that you're selling/profiting from substandard product and yes, that statement is probably going to piss you off, but given your previous response there's really no other way to put it. If someone gets injured by a system with your hose on it, the only thing that would prevent you from bearing the burden of a lawsuit is the probability that you don't have deep enough pockets to make it worthwhile. If you were asked to testify as to whether it met existing safety standards or not, you'd have to answer NO. There it is, end of story. I really don't care what other people 'do' - the fact remains that they are outside the regs and that makes them unsafe.