so..i just had some macroline eat my face..

[-=Squid=-]

No matter which way you slice it, Macro line (especially the fittings) are not safe!

That seemed really random, especially considering macroline IS safe.

[SlartyBartFast]

the low pressure side of HP tank systems have an 1800 psi burst disk placed on them

Then "the correct parts" could quite happily be a properly rated burst disk. OSHA regulations (as well as Battlebots rules ) seem to indicate that burst disks/pressure relief valves should be about 120% of maximum working pressure.

So, if you have fittings and line rated for 1000psi WP the burst disk should be 1200psi. But, what the heck, throw a 1000psi one on there and it'll be safer. :)

Actually, rabidchihauhau you fail to support your previous claims that the required WP rating of ALL components is the tank pressure. Following the example, the WP of the fittings and hoses would only have to be 1800psi to be absolutely, completely, undeniably safe.

But, if you consider that BURST pressure is 4.5 times WP, then the lines need only be rated at 1800/4.5=400psi. As long as the maximum WP used is only 400psi. But, if the reg was to fail, the hoses/fitting would need to be replaced (just as tanks can only be hydroed so many times before they're discarded).

Seeing as the paintball community at large could not be trusted to replace hoses and fittings under such an occurence, the 1800psi WP stuff should be used.

Another funny thing to note. In the "dire" situation of a reg failing and an 1800psi burst disk blowing on a system with a 850psi WP rating -- NOTHING DANGEROUS WOULD OCCUR.

The fittings and line would only have seen a little more than twice WP. Well below burst pressure meaning that everything would have remained intact (but may need replaced for the sake of safety).

Perhaps the question that should be asked every time we hear of exploding equipment is: What the happened to your burst disk?

Is there any particular reason the industry has chosen 1800psi for LP burst disks? What's the standard burst disk on a CO2 tank rated at?

(Hasn't my position changed some? )

[rabidchihauhau]

I'd give up on this 'debate' if it weren't so much fun to see how silly some of the responses are.

You are, in fact correct about filling off of 6000 psi systems. That is precisely the reason why PADI dive shops refused to fill tanks for so many years. Nothing has changed - they just needed the money, which is why they're ignoring procedure.

[SlartyBartFast]

I'd give up on this 'debate' if it weren't so much fun to see how silly some of the responses are.

You are, in fact correct about filling off of 6000 psi systems. That is precisely the reason why PADI dive shops refused to fill tanks for so many years. Nothing has changed - they just needed the money, which is why they're ignoring procedure.

What the bejezzuz are you going on about? PADI shops once apon a time wouldn't fill tanks because they didn't want noobs handling compressed air systems. The only procedure they're ignoring (with regards to filling paintball cylinders specifically) is letting someone without PADI certification get their hands on pressurised air.

While I've agreed with much of what you've posted in the past, you've started to talk through the top of your head now.

Dive and SCBA (the systems firefighters use) equipment is often filled from 5000 and 6000psi tanks. 3000psi SCUBA and 2300psi SCBA equipment is filled tanks of any pressure 3000, 4500, 5000, or 6000psi.

Are 2300psi SCBA rated to 6000psi working pressure? How are they filling them safely then?

How do you refute my argument that in your doomsday scenario of a reg failure and a bursts disk going off no harm is done and nothing dangerous happened? Unless you've got you eye pressed up against the burst disk relief hole and get a pressure injection of air. :ouch:

Put your money where your mouth is. Show me where my reasoning is 'silly'.

[SlartyBartFast]

Well, if the regulators are the problem why dont we focus on making safer regulators, when our macroline/SS is as safe as it needs to be?

Well, at the end of the analysis the only poorly enforced/dangerous aspect of the whole thing is burst disk and pressure relief settings that are incompatible with the components used.

Ideally, the burst disk should seem to be best at 110 to 120% of the maximum output of the regulator (which shouldn't be anywhere near full tank pressure) and all fittings and components having a WP rating equal to the maximum output of the regulator.

[Beemer]

Is it rocket science yet

The people bashing macroline as though it is unsafe are the people who "have seen it" totally blow up, and mess people up... which simply does not happen.

What..........Ya it does .........No it doesnt

Should there have been additional safety features on the CO2 tank that killed that mother? No. Had the bleed hole been properly clear, the accident would not have happened.

Additional safety features ARE always better. Had they NEVER switched from a 90 degree design[california water spickett valve] 2 people wouldnt be DEAD.
To expensive and to heavy = 2 dead

One quick point. Could we get a poll of the manufacturers that test their valving systems,
Oh wait, there are no manufacturers that do such testing?

Can you say AirGun Designs

41 of your peers in the industry on the ASTM committee said all guns should be rated to 3000psi.[wonder why that is] must be rocket science

Now, I'm not saying that manufacturers always put working burst disks, blowoff valves and overpressure valves on their regulators, but it *should* be done. When properly designed, you can certainly use fittings and hoses that are not rated up to the burst pressure of the tank, because *it's not necessary*.

BINGO.........what regs do and what regs dont???????????? On the second sentence, Wrong..Tell that to the guys at NASA...............Oh wait this aint rocket science ITS PAINTBALL

Well, if the regulators are the problem why dont we focus on making safer regulators, when our macroline/SS is as safe as it needs to be?

BINGO again.....Its all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and not SAFETY

When macro can hold 3000psi then you can say its SAFE

Peace Out
Beemer

[SlartyBartFast]

Its all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and not SAFETY

Umm. The arguments are getting a little asinine.

How safe is safe enough? Seeing as compressors can generate tens of thousands of psi, at what point do you rely on a safety device or two?

How many safety devices are enough? Cars could be much safer to the point the chance of injury of driver, passenger, or pedestrian could millions to one against. But they'd cost a couple billion each.

I really do question the logic behind the 3000psi ASTM rating for paintball guns. In fact if it's for the whole gun, it's completely stupid and impossible to attain. Think you can find a small 3-way and ram that'll handle 3000psi? The poppet valves and so forth in most guns?

How safe is the Automag if 3000psi makes it to the dump chamber? Even the venerable Mag relies on a relief valve for that.

A standard written by a comitte that knew its head from its backside would have required adequately rated safety reliefs or burst disks in each pressure zone of the marker. The Mag has one for the dump chamber. Does it have one for the input?

Cockers, Matrix's, Angel's and all the other dual pressure guns should have two disks valves each (one on the input and one in the LP section).

When macro can hold 3000psi then you can say its SAFE

No you can't. You can say it's safe for 3000psi.

And PS: the NASA guy would laugh you out of the building if you told him all connected systems had to be designed for the highest possible pressure generated.

[Beemer]

like I said

Umm. The arguments are getting a little asinine.

How safe is safe enough? Seeing as compressors can generate tens of thousands of psi, at what point do you rely on a safety device or two?

Tell the 2 dead people safety precautions are asinine.

You are right and I am wrong. It aint rocket science its PaintBall after all


Peace Out
Beemer

[-=Squid=-]

When macro can hold 3000psi then you can say its SAFE

Peace Out
Beemer

1) Why do you need it to safely work at 3000 PSI?
2) Ever notice that most good macroline available works at 1000PSI? That means that it has a burst pressure of at 3 times that. They usually cut it in 1/3's or 1/5's.

There is simply no need for it. Take care of your equipment, use GOOD macroline, make sure your tank is in good working order... your safe. Simple as that. I play a lot of tournements, and go to a lot of places, and honestly have ONLY seen a macroline failure when I PERSONALLY WAS TESTING A DIFFERENT TYPE OF NYLON (6/6... dont use it)

For real people... Macroline works just fine... hence the reason that most people use it.

[xXHavokXx]

I know why so many people dont use steel hose. It's apain in the *** if your gun isnt made with it then you always end up with pieces that are too long or not long enough and you end up with long lines hangin all out where as macro you cut and snip to make it perfect. Aside from that you can kink it and its a pain to deal with when taking it off guns with really tight line. Also , as a drop whore it's alot easier to change macro than it is steel line.

I dont think i've seen a macro hose blow in a long time, I have however see kids completely twist their steel line to be inoperable.

[SlartyBartFast]

Tell the 2 dead people safety precautions are asinine.

You are right and I am wrong. It aint rocket science its PaintBall after all

Peace Out
Beemer

But those two dead people are dead because of faulty safety equipment, negligence, and incompetence no?

The only way to make a properly maintained CO2 bottle any safer would be not to fill it.

Perhaps the valve could be welded or brazed to the bottle, but not much else. Even that wouldn't stop a bottle with a faulty valve from blowing loose if the ASA doesn't have the proper bleed hole.

The one that killed the mother should have been stopped by three separate things. The bottle should have been correctly attached to the valve, the player should have been aware that he was unscrewing the bottle from the valve, the valve safety hole should have started venting before the valve was unscrewed from the bottle. So the failure was with the player and the twat that last serviced the tank.

I'm not familiar with the other case.

The other recent death I am aware of is from the store owner that though it was a good idea and try to build his own booster equipment. While tragic, that was a result of ignorance/carelessness not safety concerns.

[SlartyBartFast]

2) Ever notice that most good macroline available works at 1000PSI?

As long as you protect it so that the maxium pressure is 1000psi. A 1200psi burst disk would be fine.

[Muzikman]

You guys seem to be stuck on the line it's self. What about the fittings? Show me a macro line fitting that is used in (or can be used in) paintball that is rated at all.

[SlartyBartFast]

Show me a macro line fitting that is used in (or can be used in) paintball that is rated at all.

They're ALL rated. It's just a question of for what.

[speeddemon]

You guys seem to be stuck on the line it's self. What about the fittings? Show me a macro line fitting that is used in (or can be used in) paintball that is rated at all.

http://www.newageindustries.com/nylotube.asp

There you go, look on that page at their macro, and there is a link to their brass fittings.

Now they say the fittings can handle whatever the tubing can, they don't have an actual rating on the fittings, so who knows. Im interested enough to try it anyways.