so..i just had some macroline eat my face..

[FragTek]

I have a funny macroline injury story I should have told earlier... Gather 'round boys and girls it's story time.

About 2 years ago when I had my E-mag I purchased a used 88/4500 Apocalypse for it (the old blocky SS reg Apoc.). I remember getting it all setup on my E-Mag (which I had macro installed on w/ a 1000psi working pressure) and adjusting the output to 850 psi. Everything was peachy and dandy and it worked great, until I noticed there was a small leak in the on/off assembly of the Apoc's reg. So with this matter I took the tank down to one of the local shops that I frequent and took a seat in the back at the workbench. I took the entire reg. apart, replaced a few o-rings, reassembled it, put some air in it, and tested the on/off... worked fine!

I put the tank back on my gun and reconnected the maco, reset the output to 850 psi, turned the tank of and took a few shots, wow, everything works great :) I set the gun down on the bench still aired up and about .5 second after setting it down while I still had my face in the general area the macroline burst in half and lacerated my face (wow how fun!). My first reaction was wtf, crappy old macroline, so I just cut off past where it burst and reconnected it, refilled the tank, and the next time as soon as I turned on the tank, boom, it blew again and this time lashed the top of my hand (argh wtf!!! stupid crappy macroline right?). So i said screw this, went intot the front of the shop, cut me off a nice brand new piece of KAPP 1000 psi working pressure line, connected it all up, refilled the tank, and turned it on... can ya guess what happened? Yeah that's right, it blew again, lashed the back of my hand again. So now I have a bleeding face and a numb hand. At this point, after taking off the old macro and then blowing a brand new piece, it finally struck me like a dumbass... omfg, my tank reg is blown! And with 3 seconds of quick investigating, yes, the tank reg had blown and was dumping all 4000+ psi into the macroline at the flip of the on/off switch.

So, let this be a lesson learned everybody. Don't be a FragTek! When your macroline bursts, check your tank reg FIRST, it may not be your crappy macrolines fault

Ok so that's my story, buhbye.

[SlartyBartFast]

Macroline, microline and anything other than pressure tested steel braided hose WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED FOR USE WITH PAINTBALL GUNS IF THE PREVAILING STANDARDS WERE ENFORCED. Period. No arguments, no weasling around it.

...

I'm really sorry that you're selling/profiting from substandard product and yes, that statement is probably going to piss you off, but given your previous response there's really no other way to put it.

To use your own phrase: ummmmmmm WRONG!

I agree whole heartedly that differnt threads and fill nipples and other steps must be taken.

But your're wrong about only braided hose being appropriate. Look around on the Parker website (I posted links to specific catalogues in another thread).

You can get hose and fittings (even swivels) that are good upto 10's of thousands of psi working pressure.

[SlartyBartFast]

So, let this be a lesson learned everybody. Don't be a FragTek!

Sounds like fine advice.

There's another consideration with the situation. What's the pressure rating of the fittings? 10,000 psi WP hose is useless if placed on a barb fitting. The type of fitting needs to correspond to the working pressure as well.

[rabidchihauhau]

SLARTY,

you just supported my argument. get the stuff that is properly rated. hose, fittings, everything else.

if you want to spend that kind of $ on plastic, and if its rated - go for it

[Muzikman]

To use your own phrase: ummmmmmm WRONG!

I agree whole heartedly that differnt threads and fill nipples and other steps must be taken.

But your're wrong about only braided hose being appropriate. Look around on the Parker website (I posted links to specific catalogues in another thread).

You can get hose and fittings (even swivels) that are good upto 10's of thousands of psi working pressure.

I have never seen Macro (or Micro) fittings that will work in the paintball industry (1/8" NPT) that are rated at all. This is what scares me so much about the use of Macro lines, not just that the line it's self isn't safe, but that the fittings that are being used are unsafe. This goes for the swivel fittings that are used with Steel Braid somes times (Ie. Kapp swivels). I have seen way too many of them blow.

[Tunaman]

Well we DID test the Parker Macro. In three similar tests taken off of 3 different rolls and lot numbers, the Norgren Swivel fittings started to leak at 1300. They blew out at 1450. I suspect the non-swivel ones would fare better. I refuse to crank it up any higher, we we can't seem to blow the hose at 1450. Just be careful and insert the macro in hard till you hear it click/bump in. Always check macro before gassing up. Always use good hose and fittings. Cheap imported stuff just doesn't cut it at all. Stay away from 1000+ psi input. That is high enough to really hurt. Respect the Macro!

[-=Squid=-]

Well we DID test the Parker Macro. In three similar tests taken off of 3 different rolls and lot numbers, the Norgren Swivel fittings started to leak at 1300. They blew out at 1450. I suspect the non-swivel ones would fare better. I refuse to crank it up any higher, we we can't seem to blow the hose at 1450. Just be careful and insert the macro in hard till you hear it click/bump in. Always check macro before gassing up. Always use good hose and fittings. Cheap imported stuff just doesn't cut it at all. Stay away from 1000+ psi input. That is high enough to really hurt. Respect the Macro!

For real.

The only occurances of macroline spontaneously bursting are when people dump unsafe pressures into them. At 850 PSI, I had POLYERETHANE TUBING as macro once. For those of you who dont know a lot about polymers and plastics, this is the same stuff used on the front of cockers (well, vinyl is used a lot too) and behind your fishtanks. It lasted about half a tank before it burst, and it never burst when regged down before being pressurized.

The people bashing macroline as though it is unsafe are the people who "have seen it" totally blow up, and mess people up... which simply does not happen. If you are running the proper pressures into your gun (no greater than 850-900 PSI, because after all, no guns need more than that) through good macroline, a small hole will be burst, and air will filter out. It doesnt "explode."

Yall' just need to learn how tuff Nylon really is.

[rabidchihauhau]

Squid,

like everyone else, you seem to be deliberately missing the point.

'run safe pressures into your macroline, then it won't fail'.

You need to control the pressure through a regulator in order to do that. Regulators fail. If things downstream from the reg are not properly rated, they will fail also.

This discussion has nothing whatsoever to do with whether macroline can 'take' the pressure - it has to do with proper safety and use practices.

The bottle containing your 3000/4500 psi is tested to bursting - 4.5 x the stated 'use' pressure. We DO NOT fill out tanks to 20,000+ psi because 'they can take it' - we fill them to their WORKING pressure in order to have a safety margin.

The same rules apply to fittings/hose/systems downstream from your tank.

What you are saying is the same as saying 'well, since I survived that 1500 foot fall without a parachute once, I can jump that distance every time'.

Not.

Let's get on the subject and stay on the subject. If the macroline you are using is not burst tested to 4.5 x the working pressure of your tank system, it is improper and unsafe to use it.

[SlartyBartFast]

Let's get on the subject and stay on the subject. If the macroline you are using is not burst tested to 4.5 x the working pressure of your tank system, it is improper and unsafe to use it.

I'm not in a possition to go and ask my old Engineering Profesors, but I don't think you're right about that.

The whole reason you put safety valves in a system is so that components downstream of a pressure regulation or producing device aren't damaged from being over-pressurised.

How many circuit breakers and fuses do you put on a electric system? A short COULD happen at the same time a circuit breaker fails. But, you still only put one breaker on a circuit.

Should there have been additional safety features on the CO2 tank that killed that mother? No. Had the bleed hole been properly clear, the accident would not have happened.

I have a strong suspicion that the working pressure of the fittings and hose need only be the expected output of the regulator. To ensure the working pressure is not exceeded, there needs to be a pressure relief valve or burst disk that will activate whenever the WP is exceeded.

So, if you put a 110psi burst disk in the system you can use hose rated at 100psi WP. The problem, is that I think many of the regulators or systems don't have pressure relief valves or burst disks.

[speeddemon]

I'm not in a possition to go and ask my old Engineering Profesors, but I don't think you're right about that.

The whole reason you put safety valves in a system is so that components downstream of a pressure regulation or producing device aren't damaged from being over-pressurised.

How many circuit breakers and fuses do you put on a electric system? A short COULD happen at the same time a circuit breaker fails. But, you still only put one breaker on a circuit.

Should there have been additional safety features on the CO2 tank that killed that mother? No. Had the bleed hole been properly clear, the accident would not have happened.

I have a strong suspicion that the working pressure of the fittings and hose need only be the expected output of the regulator. To ensure the working pressure is not exceeded, there needs to be a pressure relief valve or burst disk that will activate whenever the WP is exceeded.

So, if you put a 110psi burst disk in the system you can use hose rated at 100psi WP. The problem, is that I think many of the regulators or systems don't have pressure relief valves or burst disks.

Wow thats exactly what I was trying to tell him, but he won't listen. Sure he's right in one way, that making sure the WP of everything is up to the pressure of the tank is the safest way, but its impractical. No matter how much you preach to people it won't happen, it doesn't happen. The reason you have the burst disks is so you don't have to have everything with such a high working pressure rating. If everything had to be rated to 10000+psi, then whats the point of having burst disks after the reg if everything should be able to take it. Go read what he posted from the ASTM in one of his posts above, he seems to be misunderstanding it.

I like the electricity analogy, I was thinking the exact same thing.

[shatter_storm]

by virtue of the fact that the tank is holding 4500 psi, or 5000 psi, or 3000 psi, the pressure to use for testing is the max - 5000 psi.

The standard - which if you want to read boring legaleze I'll be happy to post - is that everything downstream be testing to the working pressure of the highest pressure rating of any component - which in this case is the tank.

If the industry wants to do different thread sizes for different pressures, fine - then you could restrict your marker to taking only 1800, or only 3000, but for the time being, since systems are intended and engineered to allow a 5000 psi tank to be hooked up to it, everything downstream MUST have a burst pressure of 5000 x 4.5.

One quick point. Could we get a poll of the manufacturers that test their valving systems, solinoids, regs, internal pneumatics, o-rings, and other assorted parts of their markers to 20k PSI?

Oh wait, there are no manufacturers that do such testing?
Burst disks exist for a reason. A reg should not output more than 100, 1000, 1800, or whatever PSI it's designed for. The burst disks are set up so that a properly designed reg that fails will not let 4500 psi into the rest of the system, the disk will blow and the tank will vent. Now, I'm not saying that manufacturers always put working burst disks, blowoff valves and overpressure valves on their regulators, but it *should* be done. When properly designed, you can certainly use fittings and hoses that are not rated up to the burst pressure of the tank, because *it's not necessary*.

[rabidchihauhau]

sorry, but you guys are wrong again.

and its logically obvious why, since we have several real world reports of systems that have allowed more than the 'proper' output pressure out of the system;

now lets look at this logically:

the low pressure side of HP tank systems have an 1800 psi burst disk placed on them

if your regulator is factory preset to 850 psi

and the burst disk blows after 1800 psi

and the reg fails for some reason

what happens in between?

950 psi greater than your downstream system is supposed to see, and the burst disk worked exactly the way it was supposed to, that's what.

So, we're supposed to throw safety out the window, right?

No. We're supposed to use the correct parts.

Go read the CGA manuals and standards.

[speeddemon]

Ok then, well since we fill off 6000 psi bottles, then shouldn't our whole system be tested to 6000 x 4.5 (since often tanks are filled while on the gun)? Hmm, seems your stainless lines fall short of your own guidelines now too.

[-=Squid=-]

Well, if the regulators are the problem why dont we focus on making safer regulators, when our macroline/SS is as safe as it needs to be?

[Muzikman]

No matter which way you slice it, Macro line (especially the fittings) are not safe!