an arguement for the open bolt

[Lurker27]

Heck, I've been shopping for an old school shocker for the express purpose of trying MQ type technology on it.

I mean, It's just a big solenoid to actuate the pin valve for however long its energized, actuate the bolt like normal with the ram, right?

I'm pretty sure with a Morlock or even an E-Blade board if you could find it, you could make an oldschool shocker (or better, an EXCAL!) extremely fast and efficient. In fact, if you were clever, you could convert a fast single solenoid board to drive it by chaining its output to a couple of 555s to generate a delay and then a bolt pulse.

Hrm. Old school shockers go for what, 150 now? 130 for minimorlock, mod a double trigger to fit, $5 for a solenoid.

That's a cheap project gun, especially if you're willing to take chunk out of the shoebox with a dremel.

Unless I understand the MQ technology wrong (even if this is the case, I'm certain my conjecture would work) the shocker seems like a slam dunk.

[rkjunior303]

Fragtek either Predator'd or Morlock'd a PVI Shocker, I can't remember which. .It worked, but he couldn't get more than 9bps out of it. But I suppose if you're just using it as a platform and not using the stock internals..... why not.

[FSU_Paintball]

I think that one was limited becuase of the stock solenoids. Replace those and you may be good to go.

[Lurker27]

IIRC its the valving system.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Lurker27, sounds like you're my kinda of techno geek to have a six-pack with.

[Lurker27]

You have no idea.

Heck, Search a couple of my posts, you may be interested. Try "floating trigger" searching on AO.

[nippinout]

There's no hard and fast rule that a closed bolt is faster, simpler, or more efficient than open bolt.

Within open bolt designs, you have more than a simple stacked tube. In closed bolt, you have more than just cockers. Designs are too far and wide to have any general rule. Gun designs even have an effect on loader feed speeds.

[SlartyBartFast]

Designs are too far and wide to have any general rule. Gun designs even have an effect on loader feed speeds.

Not true. There is one hard and fast rule about open and closed bolt breech open times.

In an open bolt, the breech is open for the maximum time allowed by the cycle speed of the bolt. This results in the marker being naturally setup for its maximum fire rate and reliability.

In a closed bolt marker, the bolt is only open for the time the trigger is held back or by the programmed dwell time. This means that the setup can vary. If being manually operated, the feed rate/reliability could be erratic. If programmed, the open time can either limit the maximum firing rate (open for the most reliable feeding time) or lower the reliability (open only enough to attain highest ROF).

[billmi]

Lurker has invented time travel!

The first drop in the red "unfiltered" singnal on the graph backs up a tiny bit relative to time - just by one pixel, but it goes backwards. It drops while going forward, then hooks a little backward before going up and forward again.

If you can back up time while moving a trigger you can get in more shots per second!

:-)

Yeah, I know it's probably just a pixel shift artifact of the JPEG compression on the image file, but go with me on this, the idea of using time travel to increase your rate of fire is funny.

[billmi]

Hey Bill. Long time no see. How's Dawn!

Good, I hope you and your family are doing well. It has been a while.

My post is more of a repudiation of the initial post that claims "CB's" are inherently more efficient.

I think we were looking at different sides of the same coin - not that the Shocker proves closed bolt is inefficient, but that here's an example of a closed bolt gun with poor efficiency, so it's not right to say all closed bolt guns are necessarily efficient....

As for the data, we may just post it in Deep Blue sometime in the near future but the premise of our position is based on our findings with the mQ-Valve technology.

D'Oh, you wrote PBX and I read P2X - like a tech article should be in issue such and such that has test data..... Oh yeah, spend lots of money, do testing to develop your products, then publish all the data RIGHT NOW so your competitors can benefit from it too :-)

Setting the timing parameters between the two different stages of the firing cycle in a CB plus the reduced weight of the mass being actuated (bolt not being attached to a hammer) has given the CB greater speeds in our R&D testing.

Maybe I'll write a dissertation and you can put it up on Warpig.......

Long-haried tech stuff is *always* cool :-)

-Bill

[PBX Ronin 23]

Oh yeah, spend lots of money, do testing to develop your products, then publish all the data RIGHT NOW so your competitors can benefit from it too :-)
-Bill

LOL. You got a point Mr. Mills. But if the data can be used as a marketing aid, then maybe it's not all that bad.

[m20power]

People say you cant compare open to closed bolt due to major design differences.
What about a Viking vs an Excalibur. They have many parts in common so they should be easier to compare. I dont know about efficiency differences but the people I know who have owned both tend to agree that the viking cycles faster (given the same lpr preassure).

I agree you cant get a perfect comparison but if you wanted one those are the two markers I would look at.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Why wouldn't it cycle faster....it's only got one cylinder to actuate.

[Lurker27]

Bill, its the ultimate overuse of technology in a paintball gun. My flux capacitors are charged and ready.

[nippinout]

Not true. There is one hard and fast rule about open and closed bolt breech open times.

In an open bolt, the breech is open for the maximum time allowed by the cycle speed of the bolt. This results in the marker being naturally setup for its maximum fire rate and reliability.

In a closed bolt marker, the bolt is only open for the time the trigger is held back or by the programmed dwell time. This means that the setup can vary. If being manually operated, the feed rate/reliability could be erratic. If programmed, the open time can either limit the maximum firing rate (open for the most reliable feeding time) or lower the reliability (open only enough to attain highest ROF).

Who says that on a closed-bolt gun that the bolt HAS to stay open if the trigger is held back?

As long as the bolt feeds a ball and closes the breech, stops, and then the valve opens, it's still closed bolt. You could set up an electro-cocker to have an open breech before a trigger is pulled, then close the breech, and then finally open the valve. It's still closed bolt, with as much breech open time as you want like a Spyder.