AGD- make us an aluminum classic valve

[ScatterPlot]

Why would AGD revert back to the stone ages? After all the work about overcoming a slow ROF and being a blender, they introduce a gun that brings all that back. It would have to have LX, and as much as I would like to see AGD grow new kids aren't gonna opt for a new mag with some doohickey that he has to fix himself. He will want out of the box reliability. The mag will always be at LEAST a mid-range gun. I think AGD should make something for the new people, just to be able to bring in profits and all and to get their name out there in the hands of new kids playing.

[Muzikman]

Why would AGD revert back to the stone ages? After all the work about overcoming a slow ROF and being a blender, they introduce a gun that brings all that back. It would have to have LX, and as much as I would like to see AGD grow new kids aren't gonna opt for a new mag with some doohickey that he has to fix himself. He will want out of the box reliability. The mag will always be at LEAST a mid-range gun. I think AGD should make something for the new people, just to be able to bring in profits and all and to get their name out there in the hands of new kids playing.

A calssic valve has a ROF of 13bps before drop off and the level 10 will work on it. So, I think that is a decent ROF and no chopping. I don't see what is bad about it. a CO2 mag would be good.

[slade]

To the best of my knowledge I believe you can drop in a classic on/off into an xvalve and you're set. You may have to add an extra o-ring, I forget.

assuming the reason co2 doesnt work with xvalves is the fast recharge rate, then it is the regulator that would have to be changed, not the on/off. and anyway, if the on/off were what caused the difference, then you could put an rt on/off in a classic and make it an rt.

[vf-xx]

assuming the reason co2 doesnt work with xvalves is the fast recharge rate, then it is the regulator that would have to be changed, not the on/off. and anyway, if the on/off were what caused the difference, then you could put an rt on/off in a classic and make it an rt.

I just remember asking something along those lines when I toured AGD a while back. I don't remember who told me about the on/off tho.

As for the regulator needing to be changed, I'm not sure about that. Granted the reg on the RT is different than the Classic, but in both systems I think the bottle neck is the on/off.

Best way to test it is to experiment. I would, but I don't have a classic on/off to run the test.

[11_Mile_TMaster]

To the best of my knowledge I believe you can drop in a classic on/off into an xvalve and you're set. You may have to add an extra o-ring, I forget.

That won't do it at all. Compare an RT to a classic in terms of design... There's another hole in the valve chamber that somehow relates to the Reg-pin... Taken from one of Tom's posts in the Tac-One thread...:

WOW! As ususal AO comes through in a big way, THANKS!! We will drop the ULT trigger or make it an upgrade option.

Here is another new idea, what if you could change one part in the X valve and make it run off CO2? This might be doable by changing the center regulator valve pin. If we made them without a center hole and narrow enough that they didnt seal on the oring in the reg back half, it would work just like a Classic valve on CO2.

I would like to hear more on the grip frame debate. Some vote for the carbon fiber frame others for the Intelliframe.

Thanks,

AGD

From what I know about the RT versus a Classic in design, This sounds about like what would have to be done. However, I am not an engineer by any stretch of the imagination. Just a tinkerer.

Personally, I've seen enough people using HPA with lower end guns to not really see the need for a CO2 X-valve anymore on a mid end gun like the Mag. I will admit that is a change in position from, say, a year ago or so... as I was one of the people saying that AGD should try to make a CO2 compatible X-valve in that thread.

Not that I'd object to one.

[ScatterPlot]

What was proposed was one with no LX on it. Bottom line, the LX isn't something that a new kid is gonna want to have to adjust. The ROF is fine, that was my bad, but it's still not gonna outperform that sear tripper mouseclick gun. As much as I or any of us want to see AGD sell a million mags to new kids, it's not gonna happen with the current design. I'm not saying they couldn't make ANYTHING that they could not sell to new kids, but the regular mag is not a new kids gun. Now something like a devilmag maybe, or like apply what spyder has done with their sear trippers to make maybe a slower introductory mag with a LX and some eyes. Eyes don't need adjusting like the LX does. I would go for the LX personally, but new kids would go head over heels for a new gun with eyes. As far as I know, eyes are relatively cheap to add to something. Being the only new gun with eyes would be a big selling point for people getting into the sport. I say find a good cheap way to make bodies for mags with an integrated rail, cause the mag body has got to be easier to machine than a spyder one cause it has one less hole and less moving parts and all to work with. An integrated rail would be just the thing to keep it simple enough for the average new kid to work with. Throw a sear tripper frame on it with some eyes, along with a classic valve and IMO you could get something thats pretty cheap. Maybe make the body like they did originally with the SS; two pieces of pipe welded together would seem to me to be very much cheaper than CNCing a block of aluminum. Granted you would still have the rail, but if the reduced cost of having separate parts was great enough to offset the cost of the one-piece things then it would be OK to have them separate. Forget the LX; just reintroduce the classic with a slow (comparatively) electro frame on it, and there's a nice new kid gun.

[SlartyBartFast]

From what I know about the RT versus a Classic in design, This sounds about like what would have to be done. However, I am not an engineer by any stretch of the imagination. Just a tinkerer.

That's the real big danger in using CO2 with the RT/X-valve. When the dump chamber is being charged, pressure dumps directly from the pressure source to the dump chamber.

As CO2 is unstable and can change quickly under varying temperature and pressure, there's a real risk of dumping liquid CO2 into the dump chamber. That would result in dangerously high velocities.

Of course that would be the same as the original "Smart Box". THe ones on the All Americans Mags would allow them to flood the marker with liquid CO2 and dramatically raise their velocities. At least that's what I was led to believe....

[hitech]

Of course that would be the same as the original "Smart Box". THe ones on the All Americans Mags would allow them to flood the marker with liquid CO2 and dramatically raise their velocities. At least that's what I was led to believe....

One of the great things about AO. I had always wondered how they could "peel the bark of the tree" when no one on our team could even get close... Until someone pointed that out on AO. I know it's a litle OT, but I wanted to post a little positive. Many, many, many questions I've had have been answered here on AO. And not just about paintball...

[11_Mile_TMaster]

That's the real big danger in using CO2 with the RT/X-valve. When the dump chamber is being charged, pressure dumps directly from the pressure source to the dump chamber.

As CO2 is unstable and can change quickly under varying temperature and pressure, there's a real risk of dumping liquid CO2 into the dump chamber. That would result in dangerously high velocities.

Of course that would be the same as the original "Smart Box". THe ones on the All Americans Mags would allow them to flood the marker with liquid CO2 and dramatically raise their velocities. At least that's what I was led to believe....

I'm not arguing with that. :) I've never looked at and followed the whole airflow in the RT Valve, but There is another hole in the On/off section, going back to the reg half, IIRC. Somehow all of this facilitates the recharge at input pressure. (I'm just making sure we're on the same page here)
... All of which brings up another point... Say we go through the whole Higher operating pressure, Smaller dump chamber, would that result in a faster recharge? I'm honestly not sure, (once again, Not an engineer,) But I would think since it was a smaller volume of air to be filled, it should at least be BETTER than a regular classic at a lower PSI filling a higher volume chamber. I could be HORRIBLY wrong on this point, though.

[Muzikman]

Smaller air chamber and higher pressure should increase recharge.

Two problems...

1. Do you actually need faster recharge?

2. People already cry about the mag being High pressure.

If I am missing your point and this is not where you were going with it, sorry.

[ScatterPlot]

The mag suffers enough with perceived efficiency questions. I don't think it would fly too well if we made it get even less shots out of a tank.

Notice though that I said perceived efficiency. What I am talking about here is how you can't dig quite as deep into that tank of yours with a mag, since it requires such a high input pressure to begin with. I dunno though, there might be a way. But what I know is that when my tank starts getting close to that 1000 mark, I know I will need to fill up soon after. Lots of guns need what, like 400? It's not the actual efficiency that I'm referring to here, but how deep into a tank of relatively low pressure gas that might catch up to you in a high pressure, low volume type scenario.

[vf-xx]

That won't do it at all. Compare an RT to a classic in terms of design... There's another hole in the valve chamber that somehow relates to the Reg-pin... Taken from one of Tom's posts in the Tac-One thread...:




From what I know about the RT versus a Classic in design, This sounds about like what would have to be done. However, I am not an engineer by any stretch of the imagination. Just a tinkerer.

Personally, I've seen enough people using HPA with lower end guns to not really see the need for a CO2 X-valve anymore on a mid end gun like the Mag. I will admit that is a change in position from, say, a year ago or so... as I was one of the people saying that AGD should try to make a CO2 compatible X-valve in that thread.

Not that I'd object to one.

Oh, ok. That's what I was remembering. Thanks!

[maglover728]

It is just easier for me to accept that an aluminum classic isn't going to happen.