PB Fantasy Governing Committee

[PBX Ronin 23]

Why can't more guys your age post inteligent and noteworthy posts like the one above. Good job.

[shartley]

[PBX Ronin 23]

I will point out again that you can NOT have a governing body composed of ANYONE who is currently tied to the industry. That means NO manufacturers, large or small, can be on the governing body which controls Paintball. Why? Because that is a MAJOR conflict of interest.

I wouldn't be opposed to a "Judge Landis" type figure but.........

.....what it is that you're saying is tantamount to "taxation without representation" and being that this whole concept is predicated on pre-empting outside intervention, any type of policy making must be done collectively. Mind you, I'm not saying that this would be easy.

[shartley]

I wouldn't be opposed to a "Judge Landis" type figure but.........



.....what it is that you're saying is tantamount to "taxation without representation" and being that this whole concept is predicated on pre-empting outside intervention, any type of policy making must be done collectively. Mind you, I'm not saying that this would be easy.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Furthermore, how can any one say that Governance is not predicated on the representation of the interests of those willing to be governed? The concept that we're talking about here is exactly the notion of Self-Governance within the paintball industry.

Citing other industries as an example, take a look at the securities industry. Most of the people sitting on the board of Governors in and NASD and in the major exchanges are prominent members of the industry themselves. They are heavily scrutinized by not just the industry insiders but by governmental regulatory bodies (such as the SEC) as well. They have passed the test of time.....why can't we?

[shartley]

[teufelhunden]

Don't misconstrue your history. King George did ask them to send a representative.. a representative. The colonies did not send a representative out of protest because they felt it was an unfair representation. It'd be like California and Alaska both sending one representative to the Senate [and then pretending the House didn't exist]. The Alaskan is far more represented than is the Californian.





On topic: I think that a governing body without manufacturers included on the board would be powerless, kinda like the UN when the US disagrees. They can say all they want, but the manufacturers/US still hold all the playing cards. The governing body could go and regulate all the tourney series they want, but if the manufacturers aren't going to make guns that bow to the regulations set forth, it doesn't really matter. However, having the manufacturers in place on the committee would still cause a problem via conflict of interest. At current, there's a lack of a win-win situation, at least as I can see.

[shartley]

Don't misconstrue your history. King George did ask them to send a representative.. a representative. The colonies did not send a representative out of protest because they felt it was an unfair representation. It'd be like California and Alaska both sending one representative to the Senate [and then pretending the House didn't exist]. The Alaskan is far more represented than is the Californian.





On topic: I think that a governing body without manufacturers included on the board would be powerless, kinda like the UN when the US disagrees. They can say all they want, but the manufacturers/US still hold all the playing cards. The governing body could go and regulate all the tourney series they want, but if the manufacturers aren't going to make guns that bow to the regulations set forth, it doesn't really matter. However, having the manufacturers in place on the committee would still cause a problem via conflict of interest. At current, there's a lack of a win-win situation, at least as I can see.

[PBX Ronin 23]

When a Congressional Oversight Committee makes their rulings, do they let those who are affected by them MAKE the rulings? Or do they have extensive sessions where key figures provide testimony and input on the issues?

But then again Sam, those affected by such rulings have to worry about such things as the Dept. of Justice, the U.S. Armed Forces and law enforcement agencies that will enforce the findings of such Congressional Oversight Committee.

[shartley]

But then again Sam, those affected by such rulings have to worry about such things as the Dept. of Justice, the U.S. Armed Forces and law enforcement agencies that will enforce the findings of such Congressional Oversight Committee.

[PBX Ronin 23]

This imaginary governing body will be ruled by the "invisible hand". If the collective interest is is based on economics (i.e. fear of outside intervention that would restrict or prohibit the existence of the industry and their respective capacity to make money) then at that point, there would be a common ground amongst the different interests.

Are we at that point? Some would say no but I am keeping an ominous eye towards the direction of the forthcoming litigation concerning the two deaths this past year. The potential for a blanket suit is frighteningly high. The outcome of which can affect the entire industry.

[rabidchihauhau]

Here's some more mud in the eye for the industry;

as I have been involved in putting together membership orgs and leagues, so I have also been involved in dealing with legislative issues - from testimony before zoning boards/city councils and state senates, to addressing model legislation.

The paintball industry has remained largely self-governing for two reasons: it was too small to care about and it was too small to generate enough taxes to care about.

This is rapidly changing, outside the control of the industry, potentially in a manner which will be detrimental to all of our interests, and its a shame because it doesn't have to be.

There is only ONE WAY to make sure that laws, regulations and legislation that could affect your industry do so in a positive manner, and that is to be directly involved in the drafting of said legislation.

Short historical example: I was once hired as an expert witness to appear before the city council of philadelphia; a local business man wanted to open an indoor field and needed the city's ordnance against air powered guns to be changed or ammended.

I was happy to help - until I found out two things: the business man and a city councilman were working together on this (the councilman represented the area where the field would be) and he had promised his support to the venture in exchange for the city council be allowed to draft and implement the rules and regulations that would determine safe operation, equipment requirements, etc., etc., etc.

As soon as I heard this, I was entirely against the whole thing and was no longer working for my expert's fee.

Why? Because when one city, town, municipality or state drafts laws, other entities look at it and very soon adopt it, then it becomes the law of the land and you're stuck with it for better or worse. Can you imagine a bunch of people who never heard of paintball, let alone played it, telling us that (for a real world example) every field must have a registered nurse or emt on the premises? that x are the fire marshall's requirements for extinguishers, people per square foot, etc? That only this, or that or the other thing can be used for a bunker? Or 180 feet per second was the upper 'safe' limit?

So, I helped to kill the effort, but I became very interested in the possibility of an effort by the paintball industry to draft legislation, where knowledgeable, experienced individuals are working hand-in-hand with government reps to make it happen.

Want your governing body? Find a friend who is a state legislator, city councilman, congressman or senator and fill them in on a few things:

1. the industry is self-regulated and is not doing such a hot job at it right now
2. the vast majority of its adherents don't vote (aren't eligible to)
3. stores and fields pay taxes
4. cities eat the expense of driveby shootings, signposts shot, police responses to 'armed' individuals lurking around, etc.

Draft some reasonable safety requirements, draft the enforcement of those requirements strongly and get yourself a bill up for voting. If its good and your politician friend has a good network, believe me, it will spread like wildfire.

I firmly believe that GOOD legislation will, in the long run (there's that long-term return thinking again) be a very positive thing for the industry, and I believe that it will only be GOOD legislation if people from within the industry help to initiate and draft it.

[shartley]

Here's some more mud in the eye for the industry;

as I have been involved in putting together membership orgs and leagues, so I have also been involved in dealing with legislative issues - from testimony before zoning boards/city councils and state senates, to addressing model legislation.

The paintball industry has remained largely self-governing for two reasons: it was too small to care about and it was too small to generate enough taxes to care about.

This is rapidly changing, outside the control of the industry, potentially in a manner which will be detrimental to all of our interests, and its a shame because it doesn't have to be.

There is only ONE WAY to make sure that laws, regulations and legislation that could affect your industry do so in a positive manner, and that is to be directly involved in the drafting of said legislation.

Short historical example: I was once hired as an expert witness to appear before the city council of philadelphia; a local business man wanted to open an indoor field and needed the city's ordnance against air powered guns to be changed or ammended.

I was happy to help - until I found out two things: the business man and a city councilman were working together on this (the councilman represented the area where the field would be) and he had promised his support to the venture in exchange for the city council be allowed to draft and implement the rules and regulations that would determine safe operation, equipment requirements, etc., etc., etc.

As soon as I heard this, I was entirely against the whole thing and was no longer working for my expert's fee.

Why? Because when one city, town, municipality or state drafts laws, other entities look at it and very soon adopt it, then it becomes the law of the land and you're stuck with it for better or worse. Can you imagine a bunch of people who never heard of paintball, let alone played it, telling us that (for a real world example) every field must have a registered nurse or emt on the premises? that x are the fire marshall's requirements for extinguishers, people per square foot, etc? That only this, or that or the other thing can be used for a bunker? Or 180 feet per second was the upper 'safe' limit?

So, I helped to kill the effort, but I became very interested in the possibility of an effort by the paintball industry to draft legislation, where knowledgeable, experienced individuals are working hand-in-hand with government reps to make it happen.

Want your governing body? Find a friend who is a state legislator, city councilman, congressman or senator and fill them in on a few things:

1. the industry is self-regulated and is not doing such a hot job at it right now
2. the vast majority of its adherents don't vote (aren't eligible to)
3. stores and fields pay taxes
4. cities eat the expense of driveby shootings, signposts shot, police responses to 'armed' individuals lurking around, etc.

Draft some reasonable safety requirements, draft the enforcement of those requirements strongly and get yourself a bill up for voting. If its good and your politician friend has a good network, believe me, it will spread like wildfire.

I firmly believe that GOOD legislation will, in the long run (there's that long-term return thinking again) be a very positive thing for the industry, and I believe that it will only be GOOD legislation if people from within the industry help to initiate and draft it.

[SlartyBartFast]

I would propose that a new league backed by the Paintball Board be created

Another league?!?

And sorry, but the Xball format is copyrighted and protected, so you can't borrow it.

I think that's the problem though and your proposal is rife with it. A desire for COMPLETE control. The governing body should NOT be operating the tournaments nor getting involved in sponsorship, nor have to be national and international in scope from the beginning.

FIFA, FINA, FIA, IOC, none run the tournaments/competitions.

And REQUIRING sponsors? You've gone right into the trap paintball is currently in. Pandering to big interests.

A successful organising body uses existing local organisations and teams up with promoters and event organisers. They don't try and swing the whole thing themselves.

[shartley]

Another league?!?

And sorry, but the Xball format is copyrighted and protected, so you can't borrow it.

I think that's the problem though and your proposal is rife with it. A desire for COMPLETE control. The governing body should NOT be operating the tournaments nor getting involved in sponsorship, nor have to be national and international in scope from the beginning.

FIFA, FINA, FIA, IOC, none run the tournaments/competitions.

And REQUIRING sponsors? You've gone right into the trap paintball is currently in. Pandering to big interests.

A successful organising body uses existing local organisations and teams up with promoters and event organisers. They don't try and swing the whole thing themselves.