In Re: The Admin "Ban List"

[teufelhunden]

You know what is really sad? I had a talk with a lot of people at our AO day, and frankly it seems like no one is too concerned that they have been, or might get, banned from AO.

General consensus among the Thorum members as well, who are still being blamed for all that's wrong with AO.

[REDRT]

He was banned for having a sig that was inappropriate. Without knowing what was going on, he created a new account to PM a mod. While using the account, he made a post regarding directions to our AO day meet. He may have made another post, but if it was deleted, then he obviously recognized it was wrong. He is also a kid, and frankly, needs to be given a little slack for it. Almost everyone else has been brought back, why the need to keep him out?

You know what is really sad? I had a talk with a lot of people at our AO day, and frankly it seems like no one is too concerned that they have been, or might get, banned from AO.

I think Perma bands are given too easily! If a perma band is to be issued it better for something really bad and not so trivial!!

[Lohman446]

He was banned for having a sig that was inappropriate. Without knowing what was going on, he created a new account to PM a mod. While using the account, he made a post regarding directions to our AO day meet. He may have made another post, but if it was deleted, then he obviously recognized it was wrong. He is also a kid, and frankly, needs to be given a little slack for it. Almost everyone else has been brought back, why the need to keep him out?

You know what is really sad? I had a talk with a lot of people at our AO day, and frankly it seems like no one is too concerned that they have been, or might get, banned from AO.

If people would accept actions, reactions, and responsibility it would help. I don't blame any other forum, I blame a small clique that got out of hand.

Lets refresh what lead to a ban
1) He was banned for having a sig that was inappropriate - if I recall (and I may be wrong) it was a direct flame of another member.
2) He circumvented the ban and PUBLICALLY posted.
3) IP ban for clear violation of rules

If your able to post on this sight, your able to read, your able to follow the rules. Unbannigns happen, had this clique shut up, let LPB get over his temp ban and apologize, rather than make an issue of it, he may very well be back... now you have forced the mods into a public position of following the rules as spelled out.

Edit: As for cutting slack because he's a kid - no way. As for cutting him slack because he was a contributing member of this forum, maybe. I don't like to see anyoen gone who wants to be here... its just I think you have forced this into the public to far, and he has become the example of the "everyone being subject to the rules". He might have been able to sneak back in the back door - instead everyone tried to get him back in "breaking down the front door". Theres been too big a deal made about it now to let him quietly back in so the mods are forced wtih a harder decision.

[Duzzy]

Late as Usual

To be honest I don't think anyone would like this forum if there was no control, or if there was "freedom of speech".

I also think that while the ban for LPB in this instance might have been a little harsh (based only on information I read in this forum, I have no knowledge of the actual event) it needed to be done for a few reasons.

1. Bending the rules for someone for whatever reason is favoritism. Take the use of the word as you will I am going off the dictionary.

I don't think the majority of average relatively unknown users would like that. Comments like, "Well you let him off for the same thing!" would not only hurt the mods credibility, but create a bad image for the forum in general.

2. There are numerous ways to get in contact with one or more moderators.

They have a "Meet the Mod" section, you don't even have to log in to veiw a mod's public profile (*edit which has the emails of two of them, and I assume that they can help you get in contact with the one you need).

3. The action was just.

The people to the best of my understanding have been given the punishments that fit the crime. No more, and no less. No rules were altered by prejudice. Saying punishment for x is y, and then giving y as a punishment for x is fair. Instead of questioning the Mods, why not try and talk to them about adjusting the rules, or telling them why you think a certain rule is unfair and giving ideas on how ot make it better.

Mods, my suggestion to you is that list all your emails in the "Rules and Bans" section.

[WaStEd TaLeNt]

All of you have many good points. But there are a couple of other things to take into account. AO is for the Automag community. The content contanined in the forums represents this community. IMO the mods ability to ban is not only for us, but also for the guests that come on to AO. We may never know who some of the guests are but there is the possibility that some of them may be looking to purchase a mag in the near future. And the possibility is there that there decision could change when they see actions of the general AO community. At the time that I am writing this there are 67 guests online.

On another note:PBN also has a ban list http://www.pbnation.com/banlogdisplay.php?

On a personal note: I appreciate the mods and their efforts and I want to say thank you.

[hitech]

Okay, I haven't read all the posts (I know, shame on me ), so if I'm repeating what someone else said I'm sorry. What I think some people are missing is not what CAN the owners of AO do, but what SHOULD they do. Are some of the reasons for bans, esp. permanent bans, good for business? I think that is what CaliMagFan intended. And he has a point...

[REDRT]

Mods sounding like Arnold Schwarzenegger, "Get out, get out now'!

I'm sorry just comic relief.

[CaliMagFan]

Thanks a lot to everyone that has contributed to this thread... I've taken the time to really read all you have said, and where I thought prudent, responded. I notice that the philosophical trend on AO is not an average one. We seem to be a conglomeration of extremists. Where in real life we would (percentage majority-wise) all seem to agree, we seem to all be very split down the middle. There are those that say "no censorship" and there are those that say directly the reverse. I'm excited to see what happens with AO in the near time. I have enjoyed this community from the first time I stopped here.

I am surprised to not see any moderator input here (except for LoadSM5, of course). I thought this would be a perfect place to explain what is going on in their heads and to justify much of what they are doing, but only time will tell if they will use this resource.

-kyro

[MarkM]

Thanks a lot to everyone that has contributed to this thread... I've taken the time to really read all you have said, and where I thought prudent, responded. I notice that the philosophical trend on AO is not an average one. We seem to be a conglomeration of extremists. Where in real life we would (percentage majority-wise) all seem to agree, we seem to all be very split down the middle. There are those that say "no censorship" and there are those that say directly the reverse. I'm excited to see what happens with AO in the near time. I have enjoyed this community from the first time I stopped here.

I am surprised to not see any moderator input here (except for LoadSM5, of course). I thought this would be a perfect place to explain what is going on in their heads and to justify much of what they are doing, but only time will tell if they will use this resource.

-kyro

The idea behind the ban list being visible is that accusations were being made that it was just a certain clique that were being "singled out" this thread was put up to show this was not the case (other things are in the pipeline though if they see the light of day I don't know for sure).
A great deal of what is said on this forum that everyone can read is only part of story and frankly old ground now.
Favouritism is often rolled out by users who feel agrieved...we mods are only human (contrary to some descriptions elsewhere) and often will see things in a different way to each other, that is why things that are in the inbetween area get discussed and a decision made.
You will always get someone try to push the envelope with rules, if you equate this to paintball terms one ref might think a little bounce is ok another will say one shot one pull but the player will always see it as the ref is out to get them...see the confusion. You could post up rules that are real stinkers that would see many people banned as they fall foul of those posted rulings.
One thing that people have complained about is the attitude towards other users...well just because somebody doesn't know how to use the search facility is that reason to flame them? For any who have been around paintball (or whatever pastime) for any length of time will know, the magazines repeat technical articles with information they might have covered a year or longer before. Forums are exactly the same...do you fire off letters of complaint to a magazine because you read something they covered a year before?. No, you set your phasers to kill and flame away and then complain when you get pulled up over it.
The other idea behind the visible list is so that if a user is banned they can see the list as a guest and will know not to create another account to ask a mod why they were banned or get a "friend" to ask publically "why was fred2654 banned as I don't think he did anything wrong"..as the reason will be there for all to see.
Permenant bans are straight forward as you might well have done something minor that escalated causing a longer ban and then you for absolute stupidity broke the very clear rule of creating another account to circumvent a ban to come on AO...no defense whatsoever.

The internet isn't real life despite the way some people complain as if their purpose to life would be destroyed if they couldn't get onto their website of choice on a particular time of day. We all have to adhere to rules of one kind or another in life or the internet even the so called anarchists conform is some way or another within their own twisted sense of rules...(that is pretty deep but true) Visabilty is for the common good but then just as goverments need to discuss some things behind closed doors and many things discussed never come to public view the same is true of AO.

[CaliMagFan]

Visabilty is for the common good but then just as goverments need to discuss some things behind closed doors and many things discussed never come to public view the same is true of AO.

Your government system in England is quite a bit different than ours here in the States. Mainly cause we dont sit 100 people on local government counsils like you do. And also, most cities and states have laws that make it illegal to do government business behind closed doors. In California the Brown Act of '96 demands all governtment business and records be in open public forum. That is not the case though at the federal level.

Keep in mind that the members of AO are more of a panel of shareholders than citizens in some sort of government. Which means that you're extra accountable because your livelyhood depends solely on their constituency.

-kyro

[MarkM]

I used the goverment part as a hopefully simpler way of understanding what gets decided....the govermental system of the UK and the US are way closer than you give creadence to not that it has anything to do with a UK v US thing. That said, we have in fact just passed a Freedom of Information Act that means everything the goverment does on paper is available to the public (minutes of closed door meetings and discussions) so we are actually more open than the entire US with the obvious exception of National security issues. This is way off the topic in hand.
Does every law (in AO's case rule) get to be implemented...No is the answer and THAT was what I was trying to explain. Does AO have to be visible...No! However some visibility has been provided for the reasons I gave in my previous post...which you don't seem to have any comment on. I only replied because you wondered why only LoadSM5 had replied, I did as I personally felt you deserved some kind of explination.
You complained in your very first post about the visible ban list which I explained is a simpler way of stopping extra bans being provided...you can't have visibilty and then complain about it. This decision was reached behind closed doors, it isn't something that would have ended well if discussed in the public sector. Rational arguement isn't something that any forum lends itself towards it is always a compromise and one that some of the membership, membership (not shareholders) in this case is defined by signing up and agreeing to the inplace rules, will never find totally suits them.