considering a new tac one, any suggestions?

[johnson88]

actually on most open bolt guns the gas isnt released until it is all te way foward. And firearm princples are much diffrent then that of a paintball gun

[peewee]

Troll I been playing paintball for over 10 years & what you are saying is good theory but not a reality. If every paintball was identical to the next then it might have some validity. But you can measure +/-.005 per axis per ball in some cases. Many tests have been done with markers locked in a vise. All were trusted names in paintball, check out warpig.com for their testing. I am an avid mag & cocker fan, I honestly shoot a cocker much faster than a mag but the reliability of the mag & feel of it are different from a cocker the mag is my preference. I'd say try them both & see which fits your needs better. Depending on where your at someone from AO might be able to meet with you somewhere & let you try one.

[White Wolf]

Trolls name is oddly appropriate.........

[troll]

open vs. closed continued

Johnson88... Most open bolt markers release the gas as the bolt is closing. If you have an example of a marker that fires from the open bolt, and positively does not release any propellant gas until the bolt is fully closed, I'd like to know what it is so I can research how it functions. Although there are differences between rifles and markers, the firing principal is very, very similar (on gas cycled rifles). I read an article written by 7 MIT graduates that were paintballers. They also did studies on barrels but one article in particular was about a very controlled experiment they did with 14 different markers. One of the results they found was that closed bolt markers have better accuracy and consistency. It's not something that only works in principle or theory as someone else stated on this thread. It is a proven fact that closed bolt markers have better accuracy and consistency (granted you're using a consistent gas). Most open bolt markers I've seen have no way to positively ensure that the bolt is closed during propellant discharge. With this being said, I can't imagine how a open bolt marker will give you the consistency a closed bolt can. I don't think Steven Hawkings himself could convince me otherwise without sound proof! Oh, White Wolf, thanks for the comment, it was very helpful in our venture for further understanding. I'd also like to get off of the paint issue. Most paintball players understand that paint varies, it's going to, all we can do is make the most of it. However in any batch of paint produced you will find a mean or average. Let's put all deviation aside for a moment and say that all paint is perfect. Now which marker (open or closed) will have better accuracy and consistency? That's right, it's still the closed bolt markers. My initial question when I started this thread was asking for valid information on the tac one. I was looking for comparisons to a more top end Autococker. To those that gave me relevant information, thank you. I must say though, it's been nice exchanging out thoughts and information on the open/closed marker thing. We are all after the same thing, finding the better markers.

[troll]

to onedude36

You honestly think a viking will out-preform an autococker? We are going to have to agree to disagree there. I keep note of what type of markers are on the field as I'm sure a lot of other people do. I also watch how they shoot. At Pegasus Bridge and Panzer Attack (yes I play woodsball) the primary markers are the Tippmanns (A-5 and 98). They are great markers for the price and the flatline system serves it's purpose well. I see a lot of cockers and a lot of entry markers (spyders, etc.) as well.

[ICP]

not to be rude, but it appears you are looking for great accuracy (aren't we all). And it also appears you have already made up your mind that the autococker is more accurate than any open bolt gun. (the A-5 and the Tac-one). So why was the question even asked, in regards to accuracy?

[NASurfer]

well, if you want to try an open vs closed debate, hit the search button

"an Autococker vs. a Spyder, ther is no comparison the Cocker will smoke the Spyder"

Um.... yes... lets see a cheaply made blowback vs a darn good tourny gun. not a good arguement in an open vs closed bolt debate. (The tippy is a blowback also).

Im a big mag guy, i play with an rt pro (same thing as the tac one) and an emag. I play against autocockers at my field all the time. Theres no differance in accuracy, (paintballs can only get so accurate), and the mag is open bolt by the way.

As far as distance wise the mag will shoot like any high quality paintball gun that doesen't put backspin on a paintball. Why your A5 isent shooting as far as the cocker doesent make any sense, is it set up right?

Purchasewise, a tac one would be a very good choice. Beleive it or not the keys to good accuracy are good fresh paint, barrel to match and good regulation. If you have to have a closed bolt gun just for the sake of having a closed bolt, get an autococker. It'll shoot straight, but not because its closed bolt.

[troll]

Tac One is open bolt?

I didn't know the Tac One was an open bolt marker, I was told it was closed bolt. Thanks for the information.

[troll]

NASurfer

Once again thanks for the info, didn't know the mags were open bolt. As I stated in prior post to this thread, I agree that good paint and matching barrel are an important factor. A well regulated marker is also very important. I also feel (and have proven as well as have had proven to me) that a closed bolt marker of similar quality (WGP vs. AGD) will prevail over the open bolt marker. I'm sure many people disagree and I really don't care because there are many others that agree with me. You must not understand what I mean when I say maximum effective range. An A5 flatline will out-range (overall) most markers if not all markers out there. A Cocker with a nice barrel (better get it out of the way for all of you hung up on the paint/barrel thing). A cocker with good paint, quality matching barrel, running on HPA and being well regulated (think that got it all) will shoot paint far more ACCURATELY for a longer distance than will an A5 (I have seen both markers and have compared with other A5 owners markers). I seen it happen at Pegasus Bridge and the guy with the cocker won. Thanks all, it's been fun but since I found out AGD is open bolt, I'm going to have to reconsider. I'm sure Mags are fine markers but it's just personal preference.

[Carbon]

holy cripes why even bother. just get a cocker already...

[frop]

LOL at the blatant jackassery & disdain for scientific study.

[jame4091]

I have both a tac-one and a flatline A-5, i love them both and you just cant beat the durability of a tippmann and a automag. In my opinon i tend to lean more towards the tac-one just because i like the fell of it a little better and compressed air is much more consistent. I live in idaho and the wind never ceases, and the flatline SUCKS!!! in the wind and it can be a little annoying to clean, plus opponets can see the balls in air and i have more bounces with the flatline. Both guns are great deals though, if you were to put a tac-one together buying parts single would be in the hole over 900 bucks that a pretty good deal if you think about it. one thing that sucks about the tac-one though is that it dosent come will lines, asa, fittings ,or a hopper and getting set up for compressed air is pretty costly. You can get a flatline, response A-5 for around 300 and it comes with lines and a badass feed syestem.Overall both guns are a great choice, both have customization options coming out the roof, so whatever you pick you wont regret it.

Ive shot a VF tactical and it isnt quite as nice as the tac-one. The truth is autocockers can be difficult to work on and i dont see spending 700 on that gun a very wise investment. Dont get me wrong i dont mind autocockers its just they have bad resale and ive had bad experinces with them.Go FOR THE TAC-One

[peewee]

Troll please give us a link to this test by the high & mighty MIT kids. Are these kids specialists in paintball & can we expect some uber marker from them in the future? I want to read it. See I have little respect for intellect I'm a blue collar kind of guy that has seen to many academically brilliant people that are in truth functional morons. I have never heard of this study. See we cant go to the paintball being perfect because it doesn't exist! So any basis for your argument goes out the window right there. Its easy to see that your mind is made up so heres a link for you...

http://www.autocockerhq.com/

Also a link to the perfect closed bolt marker. Note the are in limited supply

http://www.pbreview.com/products/reviews/204/

[ShadowNife]

troll man, i think that the viking will outperform most cockers in terms of air efficiency. Accuracy cant really be measured in terms of the marker assuming everything is machined to the same specifications and tolerances. This means you cant feasibly compare a spyder victor to a WGP Karnivore since they are made to such different standards.

so your basic reasoning behind the argument that closed bolt is more accurate than an open bolt is that you relate it to firearms. Ok I agree that the bolt-action rifles are more accurate, but what's the reasoning behind that? The bolt does not move, at all, until the entire firing action is over. If your rapid firing with a cocker, there is no way that bolt is not moving before all the gas has escaped etc. Another closed bolt argument is that the paintball is completely chambered and at rest before firing. When ripping at 16 bps, do you think the ball is actually sitting completely still before every shot? Just seems kind of unreasonable that a closed bolt is any more accurate than an open bolt. Btw, saying that an open bolt shoots gas through the bolt as its sealing the breech is also logically kind of weird to me. This part I'm not sure of, but wouldn't that cause MAJOR blowback problems if every open bolt marker shoots as it is cycling the bolt forward?

onto your range accuracy argument... why would a cocker be more accurate to a certain distance? Seeing as the only point where a cocker would be affected the paintball is when it shoots, why would it only be accurate in a certain distance?

As mentioned before, this argument has been beaten to death, revived, and shot again. People have done various studies, we've shown that both AGD and warpig have done tests to show there is no different IN PAINTBALL. You cited an example of 7 MIT people, which you have yet to get provide a source for, who did their experiments with firearms. As someone else stated, firearm physics is very different than paintball physics. Paintballs arent going anywhere near the speeds of a bullet, nor are they even close to being aerodynamically the same.

Last word, get the tac one, its well worth it :)

[Jakedubbleya]

Wow troll, if you ever insult a viking (custom, super efficient, ultra quality guns) in regards to a cocker (super-recycled hype masters) again i will castrate you. Go for the tac one, its lower maintenance, smaller, lighter, and looks better, probably cheaper too. Efficiency aside, these are the factors you should be looking at when deciding on your new gun, accuracy and range are identical on all decent guns (accuracy varying slightly from barrel to barrel is the only non-constant you will run into). EVERYBODY who knows the FACTS about paintball will agree on this, not just us "mag guys" who try to make up excuses for having an open bolt marker, and if youd done some research you might have discovered that.

Lower a spyder to 400psi operating pressure and throw a good reg and barrel on there and guess what, you WONT see any noticable accuracy differences when you compare it to a shoebox or a cocker.

do the same thing with the a-5, same deal.

Flatline works by having a bent barrel, ball rolls on the top part creating backspin, problem is too high or too low of a velocity will render this useless by creating too much or too little backspin/velocity. Im guessing the flatline you compared the allmighty cocker to was shooting as a lower-than-effective velocity, or was just not set up correctly which is often the case with those pita flatlines. But flatline really WILL give you more distance.

Air is not released in open bolt/blowback untill it has passed the feed neck(all the way forward). Your logic just doesnt apply man, sry.