considering a new tac one, any suggestions?

[ColdFuzion]

Tom Kaye prooved the open vs. closed theory...

I have a ULE Custom (Same as a Tac, different body) and an ANS GX-3 (A closed bolt cocker). They usually perform the same, but once or twice, the Mag shot a tidbit more accurately (1 ball better than the shot grouping test, it only happened once or twice out of many tests).

As for a Flatline... It's more accurate, until the barrel inside becomes smooth.. Then, they shoot like normal barrels. I know from experience. Also, Mags and Tippmans are both rock solid, but my Mag is more comfy than any A-5 I've ever held.

As for cocker vs. mag, I love both and WILL NOT sell either.. They're equal, but each has ups and downs (Cocker-ups-mesmerizing movement on back of gun downs-timing Mag-ups-ZERO chops EVER-downs-Err... Ummm... High pressure?)

There ya are an honest opinion from an owner of both and a shooter of all 3.

-Cold

[jewie27]

To Jewie27... Your response about all markers having the same accuracy, yada, yada, is a bunch of BS. Markers that fire from a closed bolt have far better accuracy than markers that fire from an open bolt (ie, an Autococker vs. a Spyder, ther is no comparison the Cocker will smoke the Spyder). I agree that paint and barrel match is critical but a .689 in a Cocker is a good all purpose barrel. Yes a well regulated marker is also critical. If you catch my drift thus far, a Tac One fires from the closed bolt and the marker can be regulated pressure can be varried. This is why I'm looking into a Tac One. These are also some of the reasons that a Spyder costs $100 and a Tac One costs $450. Can anyone (besides Jewie27) give me some more information.

The only one smoking crack is the one that believes a closed bolt is more accurate. Another poor soul has jumped onto the WGP bandwagon.......

Great how marketing can brainwash people....

[jewie27]

Tom Kaye prooved the open vs. closed theory...

I have a ULE Custom (Same as a Tac, different body) and an ANS GX-3 (A closed bolt cocker). They usually perform the same, but once or twice, the Mag shot a tidbit more accurately (1 ball better than the shot grouping test, it only happened once or twice out of many tests).

As for a Flatline... It's more accurate, until the barrel inside becomes smooth.. Then, they shoot like normal barrels. I know from experience. Also, Mags and Tippmans are both rock solid, but my Mag is more comfy than any A-5 I've ever held.

As for cocker vs. mag, I love both and WILL NOT sell either.. They're equal, but each has ups and downs (Cocker-ups-mesmerizing movement on back of gun downs-timing Mag-ups-ZERO chops EVER-downs-Err... Ummm... High pressure?)

There ya are an honest opinion from an owner of both and a shooter of all 3.

-Cold

Mags don't shoot high pressure...

The peak pressure of a Mag is about 80 psi, it's controlled by the precise shape of the power tube tip.

[frop]

Go for the tac one, .............., probably cheaper too.

Last I checked ( a long time ago), the tac & vft cocker are in the same price bracket, ~$400-somethin.

[Carbon]

Seriously tho Troll, is this a test?

are you a secret AO mod looking to recruit potential mods?

or is this just for your entertainment, cause it sure is entertaining me!

[billmi]

Johnson88... Most open bolt markers release the gas as the bolt is closing.

This is not true. Most open bolt paintguns - the Automag, Spyder, M98, Shocker SFT, Matrix, Nerve, et. close their breech prior to actuating their valve. On blow forward markers like the Spyder and M98 this is done by having a hammer throw that is further than the distance needed to close the breech. Yes, the bolt is still moving when the valve is opened, but it has already closed off the breech and is pushing further forward at that time.

I read an article written by 7 MIT graduates that were paintballers. They also did studies on barrels but one article in particular was about a very controlled experiment they did with 14 different markers.

Sounds like quite a study undertaken by a knowledgable group.

Where did you read it? Please, do share it with us.

[kurama]

Troll - I believe Toothpastedog on PBR is making a marker with a bolt kit available which makes the open bolt release gas when its fully foreward.

Anyways, the closed/open bolt accuracy difference is true ON REAL FIREARMS. A paintball isn't a bullet, it is a ball filled with liquid. It does not function like a bullet. The reason you may see more accuracy on an autococker than a spyder would be paint match, barrel, air source, or regulator. I'm a proud cocker owner as well as a proud mag owner, and I have yet to notice any accuracy difference and I shoot them all the time with the same barrel and the same paint. If anything, the mag is more accurate because of the AIR regulator on the back. How gentle you are on the paint doesn't affect accuracy, but I believe mags put the lowest PSI put onto the paint itself, and a foamie on the bolt would allow you to be supersticious about the bolt somehow affecting your marker's accuracy, anyways.

And your friend's cocker doesn't shoot further with mods. He's most likely cheating by iron palming or turning his velocity up. Either that, or he shoots his marker up at a 45* angle instead of flat which will add range.

Back to the actual topic. First of all, there is no accuracy diff between the cocker and tac one. Both come with good barrels, but I believe the AGD reg is better than the WGP reg. You wont notice much difference at all though. Anyways, the A5 flatline will get about 25ft more range (I believe they advertise something absurd like 50ft). The A5 will be less accurate, however, because it doesn't come with a regulator stock. Its also much slower than a Tac One. Personally, I'd take the Tac One, but whatever floats your boat.

Oh, and for maximum range, any marker other than flatline that can get 300fps wins this one. I dont believe a flatline will be accurate when arched at 45*. Never tried it myself, but I asked a friend who owns a flatlined a5.

[Jakedubbleya]

Last I checked ( a long time ago), the tac & vft cocker are in the same price bracket, ~$400-somethin.

AV has them for 500$, but people usually put more money into cockers than mags after-market wise, wouldnt you agree?

Man thos VFT's are UUUGLY...!

[troll]

aware of that

We are going to have to agree to disagree on the autococker/viking comparison as well. I'm aware of how the flatline barrel functions and I'm also aware that in fact propellant gas can and will escape through the feed neck on an open bolt marker. As I asked another person on this thread, give mean example of an open bolt marker that is 100% fully closed before it fires. I can and have tuned my cocker to ensure the bolt is fully closed before and during firing. I use the piece of TP on the feed neck to ensure I'm getting no suction or blowback. I also realize that the faster you cycle the marker the more likely of a chance that propellant will escape out somewhere else than the barrel. You'll have a hard time convincing me other wise

Wow troll, if you ever insult a viking (custom, super efficient, ultra quality guns) in regards to a cocker (super-recycled hype masters) again i will castrate you. Go for the tac one, its lower maintenance, smaller, lighter, and looks better, probably cheaper too. Efficiency aside, these are the factors you should be looking at when deciding on your new gun, accuracy and range are identical on all decent guns (accuracy varying slightly from barrel to barrel is the only non-constant you will run into). EVERYBODY who knows the FACTS about paintball will agree on this, not just us "mag guys" who try to make up excuses for having an open bolt marker, and if youd done some research you might have discovered that.

Lower a spyder to 400psi operating pressure and throw a good reg and barrel on there and guess what, you WONT see any noticable accuracy differences when you compare it to a shoebox or a cocker.

do the same thing with the a-5, same deal.

Flatline works by having a bent barrel, ball rolls on the top part creating backspin, problem is too high or too low of a velocity will render this useless by creating too much or too little backspin/velocity. Im guessing the flatline you compared the allmighty cocker to was shooting as a lower-than-effective velocity, or was just not set up correctly which is often the case with those pita flatlines. But flatline really WILL give you more distance.

Air is not released in open bolt/blowback untill it has passed the feed neck(all the way forward). Your logic just doesnt apply man, sry.

[troll]

Amazing how common sense and education can enlighten people. Do your homework!

The only one smoking crack is the one that believes a closed bolt is more accurate. Another poor soul has jumped onto the WGP bandwagon.......

Great how marketing can brainwash people....

[troll]

I need to see this bolt and you're right about the extreme arch on the flatline. BTW it is a common misconception that a 45 degree angle with yeild the farthest trajectory. One of the things most Calculus students find out that f"(x) (second derivitive of x, x being a trajectory equation, is that a 37 degree angle yeilds the farthest trajectory. Also this marker was chronoed right before this distance stand off took place. Our team plays holding integrity to the highest regards. It's an insult to suggest such a thing.

Troll - I believe Toothpastedog on PBR is making a marker with a bolt kit available which makes the open bolt release gas when its fully foreward.

Anyways, the closed/open bolt accuracy difference is true ON REAL FIREARMS. A paintball isn't a bullet, it is a ball filled with liquid. It does not function like a bullet. The reason you may see more accuracy on an autococker than a spyder would be paint match, barrel, air source, or regulator. I'm a proud cocker owner as well as a proud mag owner, and I have yet to notice any accuracy difference and I shoot them all the time with the same barrel and the same paint. If anything, the mag is more accurate because of the AIR regulator on the back. How gentle you are on the paint doesn't affect accuracy, but I believe mags put the lowest PSI put onto the paint itself, and a foamie on the bolt would allow you to be supersticious about the bolt somehow affecting your marker's accuracy, anyways.

And your friend's cocker doesn't shoot further with mods. He's most likely cheating by iron palming or turning his velocity up. Either that, or he shoots his marker up at a 45* angle instead of flat which will add range.

Back to the actual topic. First of all, there is no accuracy diff between the cocker and tac one. Both come with good barrels, but I believe the AGD reg is better than the WGP reg. You wont notice much difference at all though. Anyways, the A5 flatline will get about 25ft more range (I believe they advertise something absurd like 50ft). The A5 will be less accurate, however, because it doesn't come with a regulator stock. Its also much slower than a Tac One. Personally, I'd take the Tac One, but whatever floats your boat.

Oh, and for maximum range, any marker other than flatline that can get 300fps wins this one. I dont believe a flatline will be accurate when arched at 45*. Never tried it myself, but I asked a friend who owns a flatlined a5.

[Jakedubbleya]

*rolls up sleeves*

allllllrighty then.... so you already own a cocker... AND you think you had to specially tune it to make sure gas wasnt escaping through the feed neck when it was fired? *insert befundled expression here*

lol lets just forget about that for a moment... anyway, heres "proof" as to why blowbacks, a type of open bolt used in spyders and pihranas, the cheapest kind (and thus the most likely to have "gas mis-distrobution" right) dont blow smoke up their holes (heh, good one jake).
Click me:

Image from http://www.ottersccustoms.com/works.html, great animation otter.

AS you can see, the stryker activates the valve, which is at the front of the gun, and when that happens the air goes through the valve both to the stryker to recock it and to the bolt to propell the paintball, which is directly connected to the stryker so it recieves air at the front of the gun as well.

The valve is resealed by the valve pin by the time the bolt re-opens the breach to the feed, thus, no wasted air.
----------------
I believe when kurama said that your buddy tilted his gun at a 45 degree angle, he was just saying that 45* (being very general) goes furhter than 0*. There was no hint of what angle yielded furthest distance, you sort of blew that one out of the water.

It is a fact, the flatline will shoot further if it does what it is supposed to do, obviously it didnt.

What isnt a fact, is that range varies from bolt design or marker. Range varies only with velocity (think about it), even a gun leaking air through the feed neck will shoot just as far at the same velocity as one that isnt, it just takes more air, thats where you get into efficiency, which gun uses the least air to get the most velocity.

[kurama]

Troll, there is an edit button for a reason.

There is no way for your friend's cocker to shoot further under the same conditions without some sort of foul play, if he knows it or not. You've probably overlooked something in testing this, or you're basically defying the laws of physics as we know it. Also, because air is pushed through the bolt as it moves forward on some open bolt markers doesn't mean it escapes into the feeneck. Take the hopper off of an open bolt marker that doesn't have sealing problems (ala blowback) and put some paint in the feedneck. It will stay still. This is because when the air is released through the bolt, the bolt is already past the feedneck, and orings or delrin tolerances are keeping the air infront of the bolt. Also, why do you try to tune suction out? As the Osiris cocker (I believe thats what it's called) shows, suction is a good thing that you want. There's a vid somewhere of a cocker ramping to 36bps off of a gravity feed hopper with suction, or something like that.

Anyways, with how you post, don't get a tac one. You seem better off staying with your supersticion. Just please, don't go running around and spurting out this stuff, or else people like me will have to take some time to jam the truth into their heads. Its annoying.

And for the record, I used 45* as an example. I didn't know 37* would give the maximum range, but I didn't claim that 45* was either. I'll take note of this in the future. But really, when you're on the field you won't be able to tell the difference from 37* to 45* anyways.

[troll]

meant nothing by it

I meant nothing (toward you) about the 37/45 degree thing, however it is true. I want to take this chance to thank all of the AO members who stayed with this thread. Nice to know we have some very knowledgeable Mag owners looking at these forums. Remember, there are only a handfull of people on this site. The experienced mag owners, who more than likely have dealt with other markers and the "whats an auto mag" people, who are probably skeptical of anything besides what they have used for quite a while. There are also others but they don't throw near as many blows. Thanks again.

BTW... ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-gro...port.paintball
there is some good info on here!

Troll, there is an edit button for a reason.

There is no way for your friend's cocker to shoot further under the same conditions without some sort of foul play, if he knows it or not. You've probably overlooked something in testing this, or you're basically defying the laws of physics as we know it. Also, because air is pushed through the bolt as it moves forward on some open bolt markers doesn't mean it escapes into the feeneck. Take the hopper off of an open bolt marker that doesn't have sealing problems (ala blowback) and put some paint in the feedneck. It will stay still. This is because when the air is released through the bolt, the bolt is already past the feedneck, and orings or delrin tolerances are keeping the air infront of the bolt. Also, why do you try to tune suction out? As the Osiris cocker (I believe thats what it's called) shows, suction is a good thing that you want. There's a vid somewhere of a cocker ramping to 36bps off of a gravity feed hopper with suction, or something like that.

Anyways, with how you post, don't get a tac one. You seem better off staying with your supersticion. Just please, don't go running around and spurting out this stuff, or else people like me will have to take some time to jam the truth into their heads. Its annoying.

And for the record, I used 45* as an example. I didn't know 37* would give the maximum range, but I didn't claim that 45* was either. I'll take note of this in the future. But really, when you're on the field you won't be able to tell the difference from 37* to 45* anyways.

[Jakedubbleya]

does this mean your going to buy a tac-one?