DYE has Proto, should AGD have a "Pro" label?

[Glickman]

If only AGD had hype

well if they came out with something new they might...


cant put the blame on not having "hype"

"hype" comes with products

[Lohman446]

well if they came out with something new they might...


cant put the blame on not having "hype"

"hype" comes with products

You missed the roll eyes. AGD has hype, directly proportional to there attempts at marketting. And those who preach that hype hold to it as strongly as any SP hype out there, maybe more so. At least most of the people who speak the SP hype know its hype.

[indulgence]

in my opinion, AGD doesnt have to change anything at all. The solenoid and sear in an e/x-mag can do 21 bps. Limited to 22 bps. If any team were to get all mags and play in a tourney, they'd be fine because now everyone (including rec ball ) fields are capping at 15 bps. 3.2 already has a capping option, and maybe sometime they will get a flash that will allow ramping up to 15. There is also the predator option.

Also about the air effeciency. Unless you are playing in a scenario game. Most rec fields and especially tourneys have air on hand for you. So no matter if you are a pro, or a rec ball player. I'm pretty sure AGD has covered everything you will need.

[bound for glory]

and WHEN, NOT IF the fields do start capping at 15, whos gonna say the emag or xmag is still too slow. what new reason will you have to come on this board and bash agd and their markers? i hate it when people who should know better make comments like "the e/xmag were never popular"...i'm just a humble emag man. but i KNOW there are some emag/xmag guys out there who could tell you that yes, indeed these guns ARE tourny guns. and i'll tell you something for nothing, if you think the "PRO" teams don't shoot xmags becouse they are "outdated", well, you don't understand the very simple concept of endorsment and how it works. if agd paid these "pros" a truck load of money and gave them xmags and kisses their rules bending butts, they would shot them.that is, until the next guy came along with more money.and btw, we know we can put pred 2 boards in our emags. big woop

[hAppy]

Was that an attack on Indulgence? The kid has an Xmag and he loves it.

[Lohman446]

in my opinion, AGD doesnt have to change anything at all. The solenoid and sear in an e/x-mag can do 21 bps. Limited to 22 bps. If any team were to get all mags and play in a tourney, they'd be fine because now everyone (including rec ball ) fields are capping at 15 bps. 3.2 already has a capping option, and maybe sometime they will get a flash that will allow ramping up to 15. There is also the predator option.

Also about the air effeciency. Unless you are playing in a scenario game. Most rec fields and especially tourneys have air on hand for you. So no matter if you are a pro, or a rec ball player. I'm pretty sure AGD has covered everything you will need.

AGD = keeping everything the same cause we know it works... and wondering why it doesn't sell

Theres a reason

[mag88888]

yeah we need a new flagship marker, a gun that represents the company and shows how good AGD really is. people just arent aware of AGD. a new electro super marker would be good. anything that could represent AGD in a good way would be great.

[AGDlover]

they have timmys that they tinker with at AGD so i suspect they know how other guns work

[davidnj]

The whole e-mag design was good for its time. It needs a major overhaul. I own a few mags and recently had the chance to purchase any marker I wanted. I decided on an electro and any type of emag only passed thru my head for a few seconds (I ended up getting an angel g7 after shooting one at a local MT shop).

Why didn't I get the emag that can shoot as fast as I'll ever need? Couple of reasons:

The battery pack. I absolutely can not stand how that thing looks. The software. The solenoid\sear, the trigger frame and finally the effeciency. Yes I know I can refill after most every game but I like the idea of being able to shoot 'deep' into a tank.

I dont understand why the emag was never really updated. AGD should be proud of what the emag was when it came out but I think they made a mistake in never truely overhauling the emag to keep up with the other high end electros. Smaller, lighter and faster. Bash me all you want for liking the ability to shoot beyond the emags 20-22 bps when its not needed but AGDs failure to update the gun really made it unattractive to me.

in my opinion, AGD doesnt have to change anything at all. The solenoid and sear in an e/x-mag can do 21 bps. Limited to 22 bps. If any team were to get all mags and play in a tourney, they'd be fine because now everyone (including rec ball ) fields are capping at 15 bps. 3.2 already has a capping option, and maybe sometime they will get a flash that will allow ramping up to 15. There is also the predator option.

Also about the air effeciency. Unless you are playing in a scenario game. Most rec fields and especially tourneys have air on hand for you. So no matter if you are a pro, or a rec ball player. I'm pretty sure AGD has covered everything you will need.

[bound for glory]

earth to dave. can you really pull 20-22 i think my emag is fast,ok. i'm pulling, maybe 12-15. MAYBE. really, buddy, and i don't put down ao'ers from nj, i'm from phillipsburg. lets try to drop this fantasy of 20-22 bps, ok? QUE LOHMAN. one day, when enough people get hurt(GOD forbid) and everybody has to lower their bps, this kind of stuff won't be an issue. than we can all come here and complain about the emags weight. and guess what, i'll agree

[davidnj]

As far as the original topic goes- I think the first thing AGD needs to do is figure out what it wants the company to be. I think they decided it would be the rec\scenario market (makes sense that market is massive). Thats competing with Tippmann and their 140-230ish markers. The TAC-One is 400+, the ULE packages are over 300. The Pro classic is only 230 but when new people are coming into paintball they simply havent heard of a mag so while its a great marker for 230 how many people are going to know about it? In every shop Ive ever been to, even one that carries pretty much only $900+ Angels, they've had at least one Tippmann marker on the wall.

I work daily with our sales team at work, while word of mouth sales are great they aren't going to carry you in the long run. Naturally there are exceptions to that. If I mention Coke, McDonalds, IBM, Nike, etc you will know what products Im refering to. AGD doesnt have that yet. They will never have it if they dont take the approach that these companies have to obtain worldwide brand recognition. Advertising. Hype. Whatever you want to call it. You have to get the product out there so people can see it and see it often.

I love AGD, as I mentioned before I have a few of their markers and have had some friends buy them also. I think TK seems to be a good person. I think he is a smart guy who made some really revolutionary products for paintball. That being said, I think he failed pretty miserably as the president of AGD. The new managment at AGD needs to get in touch with a Madison Ave firm to get some hype going. They need to redesign the emag (just deal with SP, a well built new electro *will* sell). They need to figure out how to reduce their manufacturing costs (ie get prices lower, improve profit margins).

With everything based on one valve, I think that plan is workable. Do that and I think the company grows. Dont and I think it retains a very small segment of the pball world. That whole idea opens up the new argument of which is better. Me, Im a big business type so Id love to see a mag in every driveway.

I was in a rush this morning so I wasnt as clear as I wanted to be. When I said shooting beyond the emags 20-22 I probably should have added that no way can I do that w\o setting tr up to like 15 (I have it set at 2 on my g7). The point I was going for and failed to make was that while I cant do it on my own these other high end guns have evolved to the point that they can basically do it for you. Is it right or wrong that these guns have the software to do this? I dont know. Do I think it is going to last on the tourny scene or in recball? No, the caps on ROF are starting to come in now.

The next point I was going for is hard to explain. The emag shoots basically as fast as I'll ever need. It has a nice adjustable trigger. Its reliable with the mech\electro mode switch. Its also much cheaper than the other markers I looked at. Now Im sure you are looking at me and wondering why I didnt get one.

Im a chemist and constantly working with computers and other electronic equipment for the majority of my time at work. When I put in a PO for a new mass spec for my lab, I can go for older technology that will do what I need for probably as low as $2000 used. However Im not going to do that, I want to get the latest hardware and software as it has its advantages over the older models despite running over 150k new.

Another failed point of mine was with the battery. When I mentioned the battery and followed it with a statement about how it looks I came across as only meaning that I disliked the battery pack. My true feelings on the battery are that it is much too large (probably because of the solenoid choice) in addition to being ugly to look at. Finally the emags board. I know a new board can be put in (predator maybe) but I dont like that the current emag board is old and difficult to make new code for beyond the basic 'stuff'. (See the post by the AO'er who is working on his own emag software).

Its almost maddening to me that AGD never did anything to update the emag (Beyond software updates). Why wasnt the body redesigned as battery technology advanced to make it smaller and lighter? Why wasnt a smaller solenoid used with a 'better' sear? Why didnt they move to breakbeam eyes (xmag I think did but that was AGDE)?

I can probably bore you with more of my reasons but I guess to be blunt: I wanted the latest technology in my hands despite knowing that the older emag tech was 'good enough'.

Oh one more thing, early on in this thread I noticed somebody mention the 'old' valve of the mag and somebody mentioned how Imps (or some other current high end marker) uses some other type of old valve technology. Instead of viewing the mags valve as old and outdated (Its not) I think that the technology surronding the emags valve is outdated and is what needs to be updated. Id love to see somebody start with just the valve and build a new electro around it.


ps. On my mech mag I probably cap out at 10-12 and possibly a really quick burst a bit more. According to my g7 software Ive hit 21, I know Im not shooting that fast consistantly but Im certain Im over 15 consistantly. Guess I'll have to record it and analyze the sound.

pps. I noticed a pit ref in your 'sig', did you wrestle?

ppps. holy long post, sorry!

earth to dave. can you really pull 20-22 i think my emag is fast,ok. i'm pulling, maybe 12-15. MAYBE. really, buddy, and i don't put down ao'ers from nj, i'm from phillipsburg. lets try to drop this fantasy of 20-22 bps, ok? QUE LOHMAN. one day, when enough people get hurt(GOD forbid) and everybody has to lower their bps, this kind of stuff won't be an issue. than we can all come here and complain about the emags weight. and guess what, i'll agree

[bound for glory]

i know where your coming from, dave. what i'd love to see is agd and chris of devilmag fame to team up. you are right. the emag does need upgrading. and the pit i was refering to was a slame dance pit. i use to go to a lot of hardcore/punk shows when i was young.i'm 37 now. i'm waaaay too old to do that now.

[tyrion2323]

To the original topic:

In order to have a "pro line" or a "value line," you need to be popular. AGD is not popular outside of AO. They have two guns, and that's it.

To the "hype" topic:

Being brainwashed into thinking that the mag valve is "the best in the world" sounds sort of like hype to me. TK just threw around the word "hype" whenever he wanted a paper-thin excuse not to actually do something.

As for where AGD is now:

AGD needs several new markers in the market:

AGD FireStorm - $129 [classic valve, ULE body, Intelliframe, 1-piece barrel]
AGD Panther - $399 [XValve, One-piece body OTV, Electronic Frame, barrel]
AGD Predator - $699 [mQ Valve, One-piece body OTV, E-Blade, etc]

Yes, it means cutting temporary losses, but with marketing, all guns could compete with certain price ranges.

[ultralight]

Id love to see somebody start with just the valve and build a new electro around it.

exactly. i definitely think that the emag is way overdue for a compolete cosmetic overhaul. especially with the advent of the ULT, which will allow for a much smaller solenoid and require less juice to run, meaning one 9 volt in the grip.

i'm thinking something "DevilMag-esque". call it anything you want as long as it's not "----Mag", and advertize the crap out of it. make sure that it is all anyone in the sport sees for months before it comes out.

or, as one suggested earlier, make a lower end/rec/ marker. which i guess they have with the pro-classic.

that brings up another point, "CLASSIC". kids don't want classic, they want cutting edge. calling something classic makes it sound like a nelspot.

just another thought, why don't they make a batch of aluminum "classic" valves? it seems that it would be cheaper than stainless. i know that you'd sacrifice longevity but most kids nowadays don't keep a low end/ rec ball marker as a primary for more than five years anyway. and the aluminum valve should outlast that no problem.

another person posted that AGD isn't large enough to run two product lines. i'm not suggesting spawning a whole new company with new staff and a new building, i'm basically suggesting that they redesign the e/xmag to keep it up to date with current technology and design, and give it a name that will distance it from the somewhat tarnished reputation of past automags as heavy, inefficient blenders.

i dunno, i'm tired.

[ShadowNife]

correct me if im wrong but isnt the xvalve basically an aluminum retro valve...?

is the retro valve that much harder to machine than the classic that it warrants the $225 price tag as opposed to the much cheaper classic?

So to touch upon the post above, i guess it isn't cheaper to manufacture in aluminum, though it definitely would make it a lot lighter.