When is enough enough

[Lohman446]

The question started on the other thread, and I am going to use the quote feature to paraphrase bound for glory. I think he unintentionally and unfairly grouped the problems to the tourney scene (the thread encouraged this grouping), but the base thought was still the same, has intrigued me for a couple days, and still to me poses an interesting question

Paintball is a wink and nod kind of game. cheater boards and ramps are commonplace in both the woods and the speedball fields, and products that obviously are intended to get maximum rate of fire are found everywhere (rebound, Tippman RT) . i don't know many reasons for having to mark some poor sap 10-15 times unless that guy won't call out. answer me this: when is enough, enough?

I did respond, and this was what I thought.

We've already crossed the line. With the sudden allowance of markers that are clearly in violation of ASTM standards (without any scientific evidence ot prove there safety) we have crossed the line. We have gone from things that we had scientific approval of the "safety" of to something that we think (and hope) is safe. Have there been accidents yet? No there have not, at least not enough to create an uproar. Might it be safe? It might very well be safe. Do we have any indication that would help us in court if it proves its not? Nope...

We crossed the line when we allowed cheating with minor penalties. Blatant wiping does not get one suspended, shooting hot and velocity cheats which may result in an unsafe playing field are treated with a slap on the wrist.

We crossed the line a long time ago, enough was enough a long time ago. And yet we, and I include myself in that, I do play competetively, still push blindly forward and just pray that our total lack of control does not catch up to us.

I love the game.. I love the people I know from it... its a part of my life. I love it despite the overshooting, the cheating, and the attitudes. As has been stated before, if I was not already into it would I still like it? Its hard to say... I wonder if those who are new can enjoy the game in their innocence, certainly it must be a shock to play with the standards we have learned to accept today. I worry about that acceptance, both in how new players are treated, and in the legal and moral ramifications of them.

I have answered why I still play. In an era where safety and legal (see this thread for my thoughts on that http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...nal+negligence) ramifications are ignored why do we still play, why do we continue seemingly unconcerned or simply ignoring the consequences? How many of us truly beleive that it is not just a matter of time before serious injuries become common? Are we convinced, that just because we think it is probably safe it is ok? The only scientific based published standards we have indicate that we are outside of what is known safe - we hope what we are doing is safe, but what do we base it on? It may very well be safe, I am just noting that we have not studied it well. I beleive that it is inevitable before our inability to "control" ourselves has ramifactions, I still play, I love the game. Why do you still play? What do you think?

[Jeffy-CanCon]

I still play because I have a good group of friends who want to play the safe and fun game that I learned to love.

90% of the time I put on my mask, I don't have to worry that some jerk I don't know is going to dump 30 balls on my head at 300fps. The other 10% of my play-days are big games, and it really makes little difference when you are being shot at by 10-20 people anyway. Who can tell if one of those 20 has a jacked-up ROF?

[Lohman446]

I always told myself when velocity cheats become common I would quit.... and yet I hear more and more about them, I am nearly certain at any tournament I go to at least one person will be using one, and yet I still play.

[CrimsonGhost]

To me Wiping and ramping DO NOT go in the same class of cheat.

Wiping is dishonest and not in the SPIRIT of the game...but its not realy a safety issue.

RAMPING (all kinds) and such ARE a SAFETY issue.

15 bps rule was a good stutter step in the right direction but...it needed to be backed with TEETH to punish violations.
And a REAL way to test the boards...ALL OF THEM before the games start.

I think both of you have expressed your ideas well.

But ...it doesnt seem that ANYONE that makes the rules is hearing you,us,we...whatever

Is it ruining the sport?

No, ...not yet anyway.
We will eventualy see "restrictor plate" boards (NASCAR refference ) but ...not just yet.

Yes ...unfortunatly a person HAS TO GET HURT before REAL change happens.

Sad ...but usualy the case

[danheneise]

i only play walk on at the local field, and sometimes play speedball with fellow AO'ers. I do believe that tourny paintball has gone way to far, when a marker company clearly puts in, and admits they put in a cheating device into their guns and nothing is done about it, or when we can clearly see people shooting way faster than they should be allowed too, something has gone wrong, and I think you pretty much summed everythin up pretty well in your post. This falls back to why I feel of why it's never shown much on TV. I just the other day saw another incident on the news with a paintball shooting, and just they way the news lady said it, made it sound so horrible like with a sigh before "paintball gun" I find it interesting how while listening to the news, a normal gun sounds better than a paintball gun. This goes back to how paintball is portrayed to the public and then goes back to your first post in this thread. All the public sees when they might first see a paintball game is either a bunch of guys in the bushes playing war, or a bunch of guys shooting fast and yelling at each other. Visually I think there has been a loss of teamwork being shown and honestly I think that is usually any sports strong side. You watch most other sports and you will probably see some form of teamwork, but if you look at paintball, most teams practice their game before a game, almost like a routine, and it seems like that they just go into a game knowing what they need to do and never have any real team doing anything together, no remember this is most likely what the public probably sees. I know that there is teamwork but just believe theres probably better ways of showing it or something .... i dunno, never mind.... There has been a few shows on that do very good at explaining what is going on in the game, and making it look very competative and like it has quite a bit of teamwork, since they're describing what is going on. Also on OLN lately there has been PB2X which is good at showing all the different things that are in paintball, in depth stuff on guns, and other equipments, always making sure to use safety first, and showing both sides of the game, tourny and rec ball.

Things to make this sport probably a little safer would be better regulation mainly on speed, I actually clapped at the thought of the 15bps rule but now it looks like that hit the fan. Also to totally ban any form of special fireing modes like ramping, multi shot bursts etc. Now don't start having a fit about 15 bps, remember guys, that's more than most can shoot anyways, and you only need one shot to take someone out.

[BeaverEater]

at my local field ramping is becoming common place. I dont feel that i should have to cheat to stay competive just yet, but it becomes harder to play everyday. I think that there should be an all mech tourny and maybe even pump tournies. Around here there is none of that, and no interest except for a very few number or people.

[bound for glory]

well, as i've already said in a pm to my friend lohman, i did'nt mean to attack the tourny players. but i refuse to forget what i already know. i know the whole speed ball thing pushs faster firing guns. like it or not, there it is. i'm 37. i played my first game in 1985. i did some tournys in the woods back in the day. i'm not some pbnation kid with a 1500$ rig mommy bought me. i've been around. i think my perspective on our game is valid. and what i see is guys who don't care who they hurt. i see people who are old enough to know better going to games like the recent emr castle and ripping on under gunned newbs. i have seen players clearly call out and still get a few extra for no reason. funny to some, right? makes me sick. but what do i know? i'm a scout leader and i'm getting tired of explaining to parents that the idiots in the tourny pics.(we've all seen um, the ones where some fake tough guy is showing off his welts) are just morons and no, your kid won't come home like that(i hope). back in the day, it was everybody thrashin togeather and having a good time, regardless of what kind of gun you shot. now today, people are pushing for faster and faster guns. for what? how many times do you have to hit someone?

[TheTramp]

These days I mostly play scenarios and with that type of play it's not really much of an issue. One of the things that makes a player "good" or "expereanced" is his (or her) trigger control. Then there's also the fact that the ranges are generally much longer so even if someone shoots 30 balls at you there's very little chance of too many of them hitting you.

When I play rec it's at a relativly small field with a lot of regulars. We haven't really had much trouble with over shooting. Anything other than true semi is not allowed but there isn't a lot of time spent on checking unless it's very obvious that someone's cheating. I don't see saftey really becoming an issue there.

To be honest, I don't really care too much about the behavior of people in the higher levels of the tournament scene. I'm almost at the point where where I say you have to blast them 15 times just to get enough paint on them so they can't wipe it all off.

[Lohman446]

well, as i've already said in a pm to my friend lohman, i did'nt mean to attack the tourny players. but i refuse to forget what i already know. i know the whole speed ball thing pushs faster firing guns. like it or not, there it is. i'm 37.

Well I agree that it is pushed in speedball I do not beleive that woodsball is immune to it. The Tippman RT is certainly not targeted towards the speedball player for instance. And I realize that your attack was not on any individual player... but more on the apathy that has allowed what we have today.

[TheTramp]

Well I agree that it is pushed in speedball I do not beleive that woodsball is immune to it. The Tippman RT is certainly not targeted towards the speedball player for instance.

When was the last time you were dangerously over shot by a Tippman RT? I can't say that I have been. I have been spanked by close in shots from electros durring speedball.

[Lohman446]

When was the last time you were dangerously over shot by a Tippman RT? I can't say that I have been. I have been spanked by close in shots from electros durring speedball.

Good point... I have been but it was because I was fooling around and trying to take on large groups alone in a scenario game. Its a good point. Maybe all the problems are on the tourney players (you know I don't beleive that). FYI - I play most any form of paintball there is.

[TheTramp]

Maybe all the problems are on the tourney players (you know I don't beleive that).

I don't agree with it either but I will say that almost all the problems center around the "want-to-be" tourney kids. In fact while I've been shot out a lot more by real tourney players, I've been shot a lot more by the kids with all the tourney gear who have never really competed.

[sbpyro]

I don't agree with it either but I will say that almost all the problems center around the "want-to-be" tourney kids. In fact while I've been shot out a lot more by real tourney players, I've been shot a lot more by the kids with all the tourney gear who have never really competed.

Unfortunately it is the wannabes that will overshoot. They watch a speedball game and see all the paint flying and do not understand the point of fire and manuever in speedball. I've seen good players with pumps do better than some of these wannabes with their high end electros in games (woodsball). I personally play in tourneys (will not devote the time needed) but I have friends who play in tourneys and they still have a better attitude towards the situation. When they go play rec with me, the respect the rules of rec play.
The wannabes who play rec, they drive me up the wall. Wiping, bunkering, and blindfiring in rec games are inexcusable. When I go out to play and a newbie gets me I tell them it was a good shot and walk away. I was playing in a scenario game 2 weekends ago and was in a big firefight with a couple of ppl and when finally one of them got me I yelled, "great shot".
One of them yelled back yeah you better know to call yourself out!!. Then my teammate who was about 10 yards away from me got flanked, he tried to move, called him self out from a couple of shots, and then tripped got lit up by the same group of idiots playing. I ran to his defense screaming,"that he is out stop shooting". I heard at least 5 more shots before they finally stopped. That is the attitude that will give paintball a bad name. I group those type of ( I hesitate to use the term) players with people who use their guns to take pop shots at people, signs, cars and etc in the same category. Detrimental to the sport.

[can'tthink of1]

When PRO teams are willing to risk getting DQ'd from a tourny for an illegal marker, thats when I just said "wow." Think about that, a Pro team, with members that most people look up to, and have tons of skill, still will risk it to even place well. Hell, at that level, you'd think most of them would have the basic ability to walk the trigger semi-fast, and not need some ramping or bouncing marker, I mean c'mon.

I'm really worried about where paintball is going. As the speeds increase, the movement decreases. Humans can only move so fast. I mean, look at videos of recent tournies. Almost every team will be playing defensively, and seeing a man make it to even the 40 is amazing. To me, paintball like that isn't fun. I think people have more fun just shooting their marker at moving targets than they do actually playing. To some, they wouldn't care if they didn't move all game and wend through 4 pods to get one guy out. I mean, that just seems really lazy. People have sacraficed making paintball games interesting, for winning.

The recent theme of paintball has been winning > all and people are willing to do anything to anything to win really. Wiping is so common now in tournies it basically considered normal, and it seems to roll over into even rec.

[tony3]

I play a lot of tournies and have a blast doing so. Cheating is a common place. I have seen people I know with velocity cheats, allen keys in gloves to change velocity and everything else you could think of. There is a well known cheat going around pbn and the such called the 418 mod, basically allowing you to fire your gun on the pull and release. I tried to see how easy this is. It was very very easy. I had it setup with a reed switch so I could turn 2 shots per pull on and off with a magnet in my glove. This is how simple it is to cheat for the common player.

I have been overshot numerous times to the point where it was more then accidental, most so far has been 17 broken shots on my body, no idea how many bounced. This I felt was crazy and so did the ref and pulled the player. It is going way to far and this is coming from a very serious tourney player. I wouldn't be mad at a 10 bps cap with ramping. I think that would be really fun to play. Less about laning, more about moving. For big leagues like psp it would be so simple to stop ramping and cheating. If we catch your gun ramping, you are ban for 6 tournies and that carries into following seasons if needed, plus your team is kicked out of the tourney. Nppl has the right idea DQing teams caught ramping. Place stricter rules and you will see it go down. Instead of stricter rules and a solution psp gave in. I am still going to play psp though just because of xball. I dunno, we need an actual serious governing body to do something or a 3rd party to step in, ATSM anyone?