When is enough enough

**Lohman446** · 05-13-2005, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast

QFT.

Those that don't like following the rules and play straight up ball should be the ones told not to play.

Which comes back to the original point of the thread. Why aren't they? Why do we accept the cheating, and the cheaters? Worse yet, why do we glamorize it, and them, and endorse it through various justifications of why cheating is not wrong?

**SlartyBartFast** · 05-13-2005, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by yakitori

Im telling you. Its the American attitude. For example. A jr. high school near my home I see kids walking home in "clicks" They pick up stuff off the sidewalk and throw it in the street for cars to run over, just for fun? Why? Is it because its fun, vandalistic, getting away w/ something w/o punishment? Who knows. I do know that it happens in other countries though, but Americans tend to bend/break the rules of society, just because they can.

Well that attitude is pathetic. Acceptance of that attitude is worse than pathetic.

By your backwards logic and labelling, I'd be whining if I complained about those punks and I should be the one to move out of town if I don't like it.

Well guess what. It's the punks that need whipped into shape and made to respect the rules. Not the law abiding citizens who have to "stop whining" and "learn to live with it".

Either the police (the refs and organisers) start doing something about it, or an angry mob just might take things into their own hands.

I hate the idea, but it may be high time for losing teams to start suing tournaments for a refund of their fees when they're dissatisfied. All you need to do is film enough cheating to indicate the winners shouldn't have and that the organisers and staff didn't do enough to enforce the rules.

Everybody off to small claims.....

**KRAKMT** · 05-13-2005, 09:23 AM

**yakitori** · 05-13-2005, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by Lohman446

I played in a local tournament the other day with some outside refs brought in. The first game I got pulled for playing on with an obvious hit. I tried to explain to the ref that it wasn't obvious, because if I had known it was there I would have wiped it off... He pointed out the rule, that if iti was not to the back of my pack it was obvious. I watched another one of my players take a hit, continue shooting before getting to his bunker and looking. We took another penalty. I tried to complain to the ref, he just finished his move and then checked, pretty acceptable in most tournaments - he sited to me "the rules say if you are hit you may go to the nearest bunker, without shooting, and check yourself" I was annoyed. I considered it coming off the field and tried to think of what to say to the promotor... the best I could come up with is "those refs are enforcing the rules too well". I decided then that I really had no problem with these refs and kept my mouth shut. I listened to complaints for a week about these refs, and all day at the field... the tournament players were genuinely upset that they could not get away wtih cheating...

What does that say about today's tournament world? Just thought I would share.

I am glad I dont play where you do. Here, cheaters get bonus balled majorly. If they whine about it, they get told where to go.

**Lohman446** · 05-13-2005, 09:32 AM

I think.. at some point we all step back and say "how in the world did we get to where we are" the answer is we never drew a line that "enough is enough" This is not a whiners point of view.. maybe it is. Its presented for a serious discussion on where we are. Do was have enough time to say enough is enough or are we now in the point of looking at each other and going, hmm how'd we get here? You want to label it as whining thats fine.. its a point of view, and I was looking for other points of view when I started this thread.

**LudavicoSoldier** · 05-13-2005, 09:53 AM

All I ask is that tourny players leave their attitude and brash playing style on the tourny field, with people of like mind. There is no place in recball for tourny attitude. It is simply not needed or wanted. Its the "go hard or go home" mentality that is really hurting paintball. If you cant tone it down and play for fun, then dont play recball.

**CrimsonGhost** · 05-13-2005, 10:15 AM

Meh, I have to disagree Luda, a bit anyway.

I agree that the tour attitude on REC fields is not a good thing.

You should be able to know the difference between Rec and Tour when you walk onto a field.
If its REC , You play rec style.REC rules, No ramps,No "Extra Love" off the field, No 12 round bursts into the back of the head on a bunker run, and No arguing with the REFS about who shot who or what first.

I dont think the attitude and style of tour players is hurting the GAME , I think the fact that tour players CANT/WONT turn this way of thinking/playing OFF when they get onto a REC field is the issue.

I play both styles and I know how I should behave and play when Im playing rec.
People just need to be AWARE of what they are doing and where they are..and act accordingly.

We are blessed and cursed to have 3 distinct forms of this sport.
But we need to be aware that each has its own rules and styles and certain aspects of each do not always translate to the other styles ( I reffer to REC, Scenario, Tour...not to the many subcultures of each)...Lol, though it would be funny to see a Scenario player dressed in arena gear playing the "sniper" position yelling out " Your gone you FLARGING PIECE OF SCHNITT!!! GET OFF MY FIELD!!!" Every time he made an elimination.lol

**CoolHand** · 05-13-2005, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by hitech

I'm getting tired of people telling me if I don't like it I don't have to play. Well, I don't like it, I'm going to continue playing and I'm going to continue complaining about it.

You CAN be injured with multiple rapid shots to the same spot. I've seen it happen, and it was with a pump. I can't imagine the same incident with a ramping "fullauto". So it is a safety issue. I still consider it an acceptable risk. However, if every player on the field had a ramping marker I might change my mind. Don't know yet, it hasn't happened to me.

Ramping markers are "cheats". Just because a few tournie circuits decided to allow cheats doesn't change them from being cheats. Can't catch 'em, just allow it in the rules. How absurd is that?

To answer the original question, when is enough enough? Now. We have passed that point. Being overshot in rec play is ridiculous. I have played since 1986 and had NEVER been overshot (including tournaments) until a few years ago. There is no excuse for overshooting. But some kids today think it's "fun". Absurd.

Whoa there chief. You missed my point entirely.

I'm not saying that cheating is OK, though I do find it a bit narrow minded to say that people who play under PSP/NXL rules are cheaters. They are playing to the rules as their series has them forth. Nothing more. Now, if you use an NXL board at a local field that doesn't allow it, that's a different story.

Its like I told a fellow at the race track, who complained that the open modified class was too fast. I told him, if you don't want to go fast, don't run in the open division. Go build a hobby stock. Speed, expense, and danger are all inheirent to run-what-ya-brung racing. You either deal with it, or drop down a class.

Same is true of paintball. If you don't want to play against ramping markers, don't go play where they are allowed. Go play stock class, or mech only, or whatever you want.

Notice that no where in there did I say that cheating was OK. Cheating is not OK. When we see it, I and my house team's captain raise three kinds of hell, and usually at least the refs to pay attention. When I hosted a tourney, we sent a lot of angry ballers to the dead box for penalties, because my refs were good, and did their jobs like they should have. The major difference is, that its nearly impossible to cheat in the open class, because almost everything is allowed. If you don't like the rules, go play someplace that you do like the rules.

I have played with rampers, and honestly, I couldn't tell the difference ROF wise. Hell, we were even allowing FA for a few games. It just didn't make the differece that most of us thought it would. Ramping ROF is the paintball version of running soaked tires. Everyone thinks it happens a lot, and that it gives a huge advantage, but in reality, just a few people actually do it, and even fewer actually gain anything from it. Since we ran open comp, I went ahead and built a soaking rack, and soaked our tires (it was legal). Guess what? They were only about 0.1 seconds faster per lap, and that fell way off after the first two or three green flag laps. It just didn't make enough difference to justify the time spent on it, so we stopped doing it. Same thing with all the hysteria over ramping ROF. Ask Manike one day to show you the goggle testing he did to disprove the "masks won't take it" defence.

I have been "lit-up" on several occasions, just last week I took eight (8) shots to the back of the head, because I was stupid and walked out into an active lane when I was shot out. My fault, and I suffered no damage. Been shot in the ear from about a foot away, no damage incurred. Been shot in the chest, arm, leg, insert body part here, from point blank range, multipble times, no damage incurred.

Worst damage I have ever suffered from a paintball game, is a bruised knee cap from kneeling on a sharp rock in the woods, and maybe a really bad sliding rash or two.

This game is just not as dangerous as most people (players) make it out to be. Try a for-real dangerous sport once, and when you come back, you will realize what I am talking about.

BTW, I like the references in red up there in your quote. Somehow the two just don't seem related in my mind . . . . . . .

**LudavicoSoldier** · 05-13-2005, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by CrimsonGhost

I dont think the attitude and style of tour players is hurting the GAME , I think the fact that tour players CANT/WONT turn this way of thinking/playing OFF when they get onto a REC field is the issue.

Thats what I was trying to say. There is nothing wrong with tourny style, as long as it stays where it belongs. I play rec only, and I personally do not appreciate people who can't tone down the tourny style when they are on the rec field. There is no glory to be had in waxing people who are out to have a good time, and are not in it for the glory/points/whatever, IMHO

**hitech** · 05-13-2005, 01:04 PM