How would the game change if: Bounces counted

[SlartyBartFast]

This falls into an area I call 'giving oneself the benefit of the doubt' (you have to because the ref sure isn't and neither will your opponents): you did your due diligence by 'lookiing', you saw nothing, therefore its ok to keep playing.

But, YOU are also taking the chance that you are in infraction of the rules. But, with the current climate in officiating you know that you'll never get punished....

If you get hit on the break, decide to play, then the ref calls a 1for1, you should live with it. But when was the last time you saw that?

[Lohman446]

The rules define obvious, the rules define your required behaviour, the rules give a penalty for not following it. When the rule is unclear, or the situation is unclear, the rules state which official has the final word.

Are the rules difficult to follow? Are they "Unfair" because you were unaware of your infraction? Tough. The rules draw a line and sometimes you fall on the wrong side of the line.

But, in paintball no officials have the backbone to enforce and apply the rules.

Quoted for truth, and let me add a line.

And because of this players justify further and further "blurring" of the lines from the rules to enforcement and this helps them justify more and more blatant cheating. I mean.. we have gotten to the point that superman slides that wipe hits are justified to be in the grey area. Look at the rules, as you have pointed out, they are very much in the black.

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[SlartyBartFast]

... players justify further and further "blurring" ...

Players shouldn't be in a position to "justify" anything.

How difficult is it for a Ref to get a clue and respond: "I'M THE REF! I don't care. Complain to the Ultimate judge. Additional penalty for argumentation/poor sportsmanship/failing to follow a refs instructions."

Ref turn away and return to duties.

Whiney Player:: "But.... "

"I'M THE REF! I don't care. Additional penalty for argumentation/poor sportsmanship/failing to follow a refs instructions."

Ref turn away and return to duties.

Repeat until team is eliminated dur to one players stupidity or the moron gets it and leaves the field.

If off field, ignore and penalise to the maximum extent possible.

[Lohman446]

Players shouldn't be in a position to "justify" anything.

How difficult is it for a Ref to get a clue and respond: "I'M THE REF! I don't care. Complain to the Ultimate judge. Additional penalty for argumentation/poor sportsmanship/failing to follow a refs instructions."

Ref turn away and return to duties.

Whiney Player:: "But.... "

"I'M THE REF! I don't care. Additional penalty for argumentation/poor sportsmanship/failing to follow a refs instructions."

Ref turn away and return to duties.

Repeat until team is eliminated dur to one players stupidity or the moron gets it and leaves the field.

If off field, ignore and penalise to the maximum extent possible.

I'm not neceassrily saying justifying it to the refs. The line "I cheat because everyone else does" or any other line that makes it "ok" to cheat. BS.. cheating is cheating, I don't care why you do it. I agree with you that the refs should pull players for being a pain on field and arguing, I have seen it down. Sure there was fallout but the owner of the field the tournament was held at stood behind them and the players learned.. I agree with you on this one, I know its so surprsing you can't beleive it either

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[SlartyBartFast]

cheating is cheating, I don't care why you do it.

Cheating is a loaded and accusatory word. I think that's a big part of the problem when discussing the rules and their enforcement.

[Lohman446]

Cheating is a loaded and accusatory word. I think that's a big part of the problem when discussing the rules and their enforcement.

Only because we choose to give the word that power. You notice how "I've cheated" sounds so much worse than "I have ran through before checking to see if hits bounced to assure elimination" or "the other team was using ramping so I flipped on hybrid" or well... you get the idea. Doesn't make any of them right...

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[wimag]

Why? Don't beleive for a moment that your unsupported opinion means anything to most of us. Why? I'm curious.

us ?? hey you asked the question it was directed to you. You asked for thoughts and i gave you one.
what type of support would you like from my original statement. i dont think there is any written documentation on my thought process on why i think it would suck. If you dont like my reply then quit posting questions.

i really dont care if my opinion means anything to you, dont believe for a moment that it does.

[Automaggot68]

In an effort to encourage discussion I have decided that sometimes questions are the best way to do it. So I put this out to you, how different would the game be if, since the beginning, the rules stated that bounces counted. I hear the immediate idea "how would you know if anyone is out" my thoughts are that there is a logical argument that has some support that says with todays "wiping" which appears to be rampant, at least in peoples minds, that this may not be much different. Thoughts?


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If people dont call themselves out now when they ARE hit, what do you think they'd do if that got a bounce?

Same thing.

Keep playing.

Even better, everytime I go out with the team and play, and we counter wipers and the what not, I always tell myself that just this oen time i'm going to wipe too. I always forget to wipe and I just walk off the field.

[spyder luver]

i think that there r already problems with people not calling themselves out so i think that if the whole bounce stuff was a rule paintball would end it just wouldnt be fun anymore .........thank u to all of u who dont wipe and who dont cheat

[slade]

i think that there r already problems with people not calling themselves out so i think that if the whole bounce stuff was a rule paintball would end it just wouldnt be fun anymore .........thank u to all of u who dont wipe and who dont cheat

...and thank u to everyone who actually spells out whole words.

[rabidchihauhau]

[SlartyBartFast]

First, when it comes to human beings, there is NO such thing as black and white - its all gray. I'm pretty sure that most, if not all, of the players out there are human beings.
...
but its pretty obvious, at least to me, that there are some instances where attempting to honor the intent of the rule still leaves plenty of wiggle room or gray area.
...
Its not always ball-less referees failiing to make calls and its not always cheating pros getting away with murder, sometimes its reality intruding on the rules and sometimes the line is so thin that its easy to step over - even while being an 'honest' player.

All true. But it still remains taht the power and authority of the officials IS balck and white. Their interpretation is what counts.

That's why I dislike the use of the word "cheating". Only the actions that are obviously and blatently against the letter and intent of the rules are cheating. Shooting faster than field fps, or doing like Salms.

In ALL sports there is "wiggle" room. Even criminal and civil law has "wiggle" room. That's why there are judges and lawyers. Paintball isn't the only sport to turn a blind eye to scofflaws and grey area either. Look at the NBA and NHL with the doping issues.

The difference is that in paintball ther seems to be little interest in controlling or defining how much "wiggle" is acceptable. Instead of bringin the game down to the level of those that push and break the limits of the rules, the call should be to raise the bar and to hold those that won't because of self interest accountable.

rabidchihauhau, while from past rules discussions we may not agree on our visions of what makes the "perfect" paintball game, you and I are pretty much on the same page in all this I believe.

It's high time that paintball players organise in a way to define exactly what skills paintball is supposed to test and to redefine the game rules around those goals. Unfortunately, paintball grew too big too fast and is top heavy with people who see themselves not as promoters of a great sport, but as "the next big thing". As such they and those that follow them are stary eyed and blinded by money, prizes, and power.

I won't reiterate all my various stances on rules here. A search will turn up many such discussions. Including questions of how many would attend tournaments for the sake of honour and pride alone (when I questioned if the new HUGE prizes at Skyball were really a draw and a good thing) or why even local tournaments and series seemed more interested in prize packages than promoting fair competition.

There are many intertwined issues in the paintball industry that most turn a blind eye to. rabidchihauhau you have far more experience with them than most others on AO, so I won't argue with your views there.

But people have to realise that poor rules used at the rec level, then poor enforcement and promotion at the local tournament series, spreads it's way throughout paintball culture.

That culture that is epitoimised in the attitude of competition players of all levels of playing until the ref calls and saying the system isn't broke. I'll push the rules because others are...

Yet every competition and rec player has a large economic power to change the way the "system" works. A family member used to play the lcoal tournament series and quit. The reason? Only the teams sponsored by the fields could really afford to compete. So, when you think about it, all the rec palyers playing boosted paint and field fees and all the losing participants in eac competition are actually cutting rather substantial cash checks to the winners of each tournament.

How would peoples attitudes towards rules and enforcement change if instead of paying large fees to a tournamnet promoter, instead individually handed their share of the cash prize over to the winners at the end of the tournament?

Where would baseball, hockey, soccer, and football be if every midget, bantam, and municipal league was cash prize based instead of based on everyone paying an entry fee and competing for the glory of their name on a trophy?

Yet, players still flock to tournaments that get coverage and promotion not for fairplay and organisation, but for how big the prizes are, how exotic the location, or how big the vendor area is. Unfortunately, the actual GAMES seem to be the second or third priority. Behind selling paint, selling merchandise and catering to the corporate sponsors.

Something to consider in the light of a question asking "How would the game change...". There seems to be widely differing views about what the game IS, let alone what it might change to.

[Lohman446]

Where would baseball, hockey, soccer, and football be if every midget, bantam, and municipal league was cash prize based instead of based on everyone paying an entry fee and competing for the glory of their name on a trophy?

That question deserves its own thread

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1922110#post1922110

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[ApexAZ]

If bounces counted it would just make the cheating worse. That's the whole point of them having paint in them. It's bad enough with wiping. Why would anyone call themselves out from a bounce and how could the refs catch it?

[Automaggot68]

Ever thought about how the game would be in gun hits didnt count?