Mags are NOT "high end" markers

[SpecialBlend2786]

This brings up the question

"Are pumps high end markers?"

They can't shoot fast, but they are light and perfrom well, and are often great quality. (Phantom, carter, etc)

High end for me just means its a quality product that performs (shoots accurately) that is made with good tolerances. For me, for something to be High end it doesn't have to shoot fast.

My opinion on the whole thing.

I think there are High end pumps and low end pumps. CCM pumps and Carters would be among the high end, and tigersharks on the lowend.

I think high end takes into account many things, including price, quality, and performance.

[Jack & Coke]

It's all relative...

The level for "high end" is always moving.

If you don't keep up with competition, you fall behind.

13 years ago, my Intel 386 was a $2,800 high end computer...

12 years ago my 46" rear projection TV was a $4,000 high end entertainment center...

8 years ago my first VL revy was a high end hopper...

These things all function just as they did when I first bought them. But they all can't stand up to the NEW high end stuff.

IMO, mags are not LOW END, but they are not HIGH END either (anymore).

They're more of a MED-HIGH END gun.

IMO, HIGH END must excel in:

• advanced, efficient and logical engineering design (something engineers can appreciate)
• great speed (high ROF)
• easy to obtain high ROF (great board - electronics/programming)
• A.C.E. (reliable logic)
• great/reliable trigger system (no worry of hysteresis)
• great air efficiency (ability to go deep into the tank)
• top quality materials and workmanship
• great balance, handling, aesthetics

You are welcome to disagree, these are just my opinions...

[SpecialBlend2786]

After reading J&C's post, I am forced to redefine my definition.

I think high end takes into account many things, including price, quality, technological advancement, innovation, and performance.

[RingOfScale]

Instead of trying to compare mags to the best performing guns currently, i think we need to have different catagories.

High end within pumps
High end within mechanical guns
High end within electronic guns

It is almost impossible to compare across catagory, because they are totaly different things. Generally people who buy from each catagory are looking for something entirely different. No one would ever buy a mag to compete in the NXL, but few people would buy an Ego to be a scenario gun. Ego > tac 1 in tournament, tac 1 > ego in scenario. Which is more high-end? Depends on what u want it for... both are built very well. Thats why we need different catagories.

[RRfireblade]

I think there's confusion among terms here,

"High End" is more of a reference to quality of construction, as some have mentioned, "High End Pump Gun" or anything other similar reference with a performance criteria based on the intended use of the item. For instance I was in the electronics business and sold "high end" electronics. This included everything from plasma displays to tube amplifiers, yeah I said tube amplifiers and other tube based electronics.I've sold tube based Audio and Theater systems that cost more than some people homes,no question High End.

So, what are we really talking about?

Are Mags high end? Sure, I would say so based on quality of contruction,materials and performanced based on there intended design. (Tourny scene circa 1990, Rec ball today)

But...

Are they State of the Art? Cutting Edge? Obviously not.

Some people consider 'High End' to mean both things and perhaps they should if your speaking 'On the higher end of what's currently available', that would imply max performance,most advanced design and electroincs (electronics being standard on todays markers) as they complete the entire package.

The bottom line is it's primarily a perception based question and typically quanitfied by each persons individual frame of references.

[warbeak2099]

I don't get it. Mags can compete. Can a mech mag compete against high-end electros? No, no mech can... yet.

Can an electro mag compete with other electros? Yea of course. They cycle fast and as long as the board is capped high enough they can shoot just as fast as other guns.

[Muzikman]

I have not read the entire thread yet, but my question is what makes a gun "high end"?

Build Quality?
Efficiency?
Rate of Fire?
Looks? (milling, different ano, etc)?
Ease of use?
Number of after market parts?
Number of ball chops?
Number of barrel breaks?
Number of firing modes?
PRICE?

I am not saying the mag fits in many of these categories, I am just trying to figure out what makes a gun high end.

[RRfireblade]

Compete? Sure but that's not the quesion that was asked.

From a technological stand point are they at the 'High end' of what's currently available on the market?

[Maggot6]

I think that mech mags are pretty well the best mech markers out there. Speed, reliability, basically no maintanence(sp, gottal learn how to spell that) and if you do things right, a pretty light trigger pull. And if you do things even more right, an AMAZING trigger pull...
What I ask is, what seperates a timmy/angel/XXX marker from any high end AGD marker (Devil / Xmag) Speed- both are WAY to fast, Reliability - Well, user influenced, but generally mags are less maintanence. Weight- All seem to be Under 3 pounds, what else do you want? Accuracy- Both are the same. Boards/special features- well, TAG with the predator board, rrfireblades, and MECH AND HYBRID...Angels/timmy's/XXX's have more boards, but what makes them different from the TAG predator boards? Devils have Eyes, same with xmags(see The deviled Xmag as well) Cosmetics? Well, mags have at least 5 different bodies, and then you can make your own, Angels/timmy's/XXX's probably do as well,...Efficiency- Mags are quite good in efficiency, up until it hits the 800 psi point. So I guess mags lose there..

I just don't understand what makes emag's less up to date and high tech than everything else.

[UTDragun]

http://www.pbreview.com/products/reviews/3599/ <--- highest mech marker ive seen

I would say some mags are tourney specified "high end"
Pnuemag
DevilMag
e/x mag
e/x w/ pred.

[BigEvil]

Uh, yeah.. had to go poke the hornets nest.......



Here are my thoughts.

Just because Mags are not the flavor of the month does not mean they are not high end.

They are NOT state of the art. Eventhough with the new predator board, I think that is a debatable statement.

An emag with a predator that ran off of a 9v w/break beams would have to be considered state of the art. (Devilmag?)

Mechanically, they are by all means STATE OF THE ART.

Electronically and software wise, they are not.

But if you consider quality of construction, relyability, and performance, they are definately high end.

The stock emag boards are capped at 20bps. With a level 10, you do not break balls. Can any other gun capable of 20pbs fire w/o breaking paint with no eye system?

[Lohman446]

Uh, yeah.. had to go poke the hornets nest.......



Here are my thoughts.

Just because Mags are not the flavor of the month does not mean they are not high end.

They are NOT state of the art. Eventhough with the new predator board, I think that is a debatable statement.

An emag with a predator that ran off of a 9v w/break beams would have to be considered state of the art. (Devilmag?)

Mechanically, they are by all means STATE OF THE ART.

Electronically and software wise, they are not.

But if you consider quality of construction, relyability, and performance, they are definately high end.

The stock emag boards are capped at 20bps. With a level 10, you do not break balls. Can any other gun capable of 20pbs fire w/o breaking paint with no eye system?

I would argue, even though I love the simple mechanics of the mag, that the spring return (as opposed to air return of an Ion or Freestyle) makes it not state of the art. The advantages of air return (where the force can be cut off) may include lower operating pressure (no spring to overcome) and more efficiency because of it.

[Jack & Coke]

I think high end takes into account many things, including price, quality, technological advancement, innovation, and performance.

Good summary.

• ...I think there's confusion among terms here...
• ...Are Mags high end? Sure, I would say so based on quality of contruction,materials and performanced based on their intended design...
• ...Are they State of the Art? Cutting Edge? Obviously not. Some people consider 'High End' to mean both things and perhaps they should if your speaking 'On the higher end of what's currently available', that would imply max performance, most advanced design and electroincs (electronics being standard on todays markers) as they complete the entire package.

Excellent points!

I agree.

As a mech class marker, then YES the mag is "HIGH END".

However, as a "state-of-the-art" HIGH END electro, then NO the mag is no longer "HIGH END".

I would argue, even though I love the simple mechanics of the mag, that the spring return (as opposed to air return of an Ion or Freestyle) makes it not state of the art. The advantages of air return (where the force can be cut off) may include lower operating pressure (no spring to overcome) and more efficiency because of it.

Another good post! Wow you guys are on it today!

[slade]

"high end" and "low end" are relative placements on the spectrum of products on the market. thus there could be high and low end pumps, mechanical markers, or electros. an x-valved uled mag would be high end mechanical. the classic would be low or mid end mechanical. when it came out, there were no better markers on the market, so it would have been high end mechanical then. however since then better markers have come out, so it is now low or mid. a phantom or carter would be a high end pump, and... well i guess you guys can fill in the rest.

[ultralight]

I would argue, even though I love the simple mechanics of the mag, that the spring return (as opposed to air return of an Ion or Freestyle) makes it not state of the art. The advantages of air return (where the force can be cut off) may include lower operating pressure (no spring to overcome) and more efficiency because of it.

in a spring return system you aren't really overcoming the spring, you are storing that energy in the spring until the end of the cycle, the energy has to come from somewhere. if you aren't using the air to push the spring then you are using it to move the bolt back in the absence of that spring. this has come up in several other threads (mostly in the tech forum).

to me air efficiency is how many shots you get per tank. i seem to remember the shockers (spool valve- air return) needing a bit of a tune up to fix high gas consumption.

as far as "high end" goes, i believe the term originally just meant price.
i personally include price, quality of materials, fit and finish, and performance. firing speed is, in my opinion, a small part of performance. mainly because it is a relatively subjective topic. there are high end pumps, pistols, cockers, and custom markers that can't fire all that fast but what makes them high end is the quality of their construction and the way that they perform in their given arenas.

i think that, in general, people in this sport have become obcessed with speed to the point where they feel that that is the most important feature. this is a big part of the reason that we see kids with no talent or skill using ions and wraths and intimidators and matrixes talking about how great they are at paintball simply because they can shoot fast.