Legal Action against cheaters in PB?

[TAG]

You just spent thousands of $$$$'s attending an event and end up playing a team in the finals that cheats. It is obvious and can be proven but you lose the event because of this. In this case the players could have been wiping or possibly shooting guns that were faster than the allowed limit of the event.

Your player is injured because he is shot with a gun that was shooting extremely hot (over 350) from a few inches away. This was caught on the radar and the injury is severe. The velocity was increased by the user of the hot gun and he knew that his actions were dangerous.

Should you be able to take legal action? Would you take legal action if you could?
If you feel legal action should be taken where should it stop? At the player or hold the electronics designer responsible if he produced the products that caused both incidents?

A pro paintball player uses a product that gives them an unfair advantage by being able to shoot faster or harder than the "legal" or "safe" limit. Should they be fined or expelled like in other pro sports?

I would love to see your feeling and thoughts on this.

For those of you that are curious....yea we are up to something.

[JoshK]

You just spent thousands of $$$$'s attending an event and end up playing a team in the finals that cheats. It is obvious and can be proven but you lose the event because of this. In this case the players could have been wiping or possibly shooting guns that were faster than the allowed limit of the event.

Your player is injured because he is shot with a gun that was shooting extremely hot (over 350) from a few inches away. This was caught on the radar and the injury is severe. The velocity was increased by the user of the hot gun and he knew that his actions were dangerous.

First off I would feel extremely bad for my team mate, and be ticked off at the player who did it.

Should you be able to take legal action? Would you take legal action if you could?
If you feel legal action should be taken where should it stop? At the player or hold the electronics designer responsible if he produced the products that caused both incidents?

I would say it would be up to the injured player. If I was the player I definatly would.

It should stop at the person who did you in-justice. I hate it when people go after companies and crap when they could just go after the person who commited the injury.

Also I think there should be ummm what is the word for when the government takes you to court, not a person? Well that should happen...under the charge of battery or something like that. Because they are making their gun going above the maximum velocity on purpose...and unless you are stupid you know that can, and most likely will hurt someone.

A pro paintball player uses a product that gives them an unfair advantage by being able to shoot faster or harder than the "legal" or "safe" limit. Should they be fined or expelled like in other pro sports?

I think they should have both done. There are no exceptions to safety.

I would love to see your feeling and thoughts on this.

For those of you that are curious....yea we are up to something.

What kind of something might I ask?

[TheTramp]

I could see taking action again the player for the hot shooting and the event producers for allowing the "proven" wipers to still win the event (as in it's on camera and can be shown to the final judge before the prizes are given out.) If there could be points taken away at the end of the day due to camera shots I'd bet the level of cheating would have to go down because it'd be more difficult to get away with.

Yes I think teams/players should have real consequences for their actions. It's a disgrace that the guy who was shooting into the games from the woods it allowed to have a presence at all in pro paintball.

[onedude36]

sue the player, not the company. If you sue the company it could have negative repercussions for the rest of us who want to play. Can a spyder shoot over 300? It can be made to. I dont want companys handicapping their guns because of some idiot so the rest of us cant play how we want to.

[magman007]

IT should be a league thing, fining the player, and if any injurys do occure, then they should make the player pay for medical bills, this would be between the players and the courts.

Now, no matter what, the softwear designers would bite the bullet. It all tricles down. I remember tom talking about it at a tech class, i think you were there bob, i think 3 years ago, at IAO, at the conference center. Tom was sued about the automag doing some damage, and inturn he had to sue ben tippman, because they designed the pinvalve that powered the marker, or something allong those lines.

Thats what would happen.

Im assuming this is all in relevance to the advantage deal on pbn, i saw your post about them robbing players, and i whole heartedly agree

[Lohman446]

I've made the argument that such a situation resulting in severe injury or death is likely enough to cover criminal negligence standards, not just civil

[player4]

sue the player, not the company. If you sue the company it could have negative repercussions for the rest of us who want to play. Can a spyder shoot over 300? It can be made to. I dont want companys handicapping their guns because of some idiot so the rest of us cant play how we want to.

I think he's refering (sp) to how some manufacters are making boards that can literally raise the guns FPS, making the marker shot illegally. I'm not sure though.

[GA Devil]

1 thing you have to look at is ive seen what 350fps would do to a single pane lens awhile back. at about 6 feet (which is more then most bunkering distances) it went straight thru the lens. So to me this becomes more then a "league issue". Purposly doing this would seem to fall into felonious (sp?) assault.

When a certain baseball player was caught using a cork bat look what all happened there. And he wasnt even endangering anyone really. With ramping velocity comes physical danger where a slap on the wrist and yelling "NO!" dont cut it. if you go out and use somethign else to hurt someone purposly, as far as i know you get more then the slap on the wrist.

Whats goign to happen is someone will be seriously injured due to actions like this and then it will be one of those "we should have seen it coming" things..too bad that dont help the poor guy or girl that is now blind (or worse) because someone wanted an "edge" on the sport.

There is more to look at when someones life and physical well being including your own is on the line.

[SpitFire1299]

I think its crap that people cheat, and yes i agree.. there needs to be something done. The best part is where some think its "part of the game" like "the paintball game for xbox", where you have the ability to cheat.

One time my team-mate got shot right in the upper chest most likley off the break(he didnt feel it at all), and he didnt know it. We almost got kicked out of the tournament, even as other teams cheat like crazy as everyone watches them in the stands. Its out of control.. hard to tell sometimes, but in most cases if your wiping at your shirt with your elbow there must be something going on.

[CKY_Alliance]

You just spent thousands of $$$$'s attending an event and end up playing a team in the finals that cheats. It is obvious and can be proven but you lose the event because of this. In this case the players could have been wiping or possibly shooting guns that were faster than the allowed limit of the event.

Your player is injured because he is shot with a gun that was shooting extremely hot (over 350) from a few inches away. This was caught on the radar and the injury is severe. The velocity was increased by the user of the hot gun and he knew that his actions were dangerous.

Should you be able to take legal action? Would you take legal action if you could?
If you feel legal action should be taken where should it stop? At the player or hold the electronics designer responsible if he produced the products that caused both incidents?

A pro paintball player uses a product that gives them an unfair advantage by being able to shoot faster or harder than the "legal" or "safe" limit. Should they be fined or expelled like in other pro sports?

I would love to see your feeling and thoughts on this.

For those of you that are curious....yea we are up to something.

thats negligence....for the rules..i got no problem with ramping shots(EDIT; when allowed) but ramping your velocity is riddicoulus.Im sure you could take some sort of legal action but then again you sign a waiver or what not ...but then the waiver you sign is agreeging to not sue or what not under the circumstances set before an event and if those are not abliged by one party then its not really part of the contract any more since they did not follow the guidelines.So the terms you agreed to were borken so there fore its a whole nother situation..see what im saying...so yea im sure you could take legal action..woudl I?No unless it was really serious but i would want some sort of suspension of the player that ramped the velocity..i wouldnt take action against the player...unless he was hurt badly but then i would want somthing done about it..especailly the desinger of the electronics to maybe stop them from doing it again.

If theres any doctor bills i would have the other player pay them ..i guess a civil suite would take care of that and then i would try to prevent the company from making the boards.


Then on the other hand....you know going into the game that it can be dangerous..all though velocity was increased..ehh its a messed up deal and if i were you i would want soemthing done about it...not necessarly legal action but something to get your point across.

[Lohman446]

thats negligence....for the rules..i got no problem with ramping shots but ramping your velocity is riddicoulus.

Let me state first that I agree with you in laymans terms. But let me ask you this. How, legally, is ramping velocity in violation of the only scientifically published standards (as requested by the manufacturers) (ASTM) any different the enhanced triggers in violation of the same standards? Not to say that I don't see the obvious difference from playing, but it seems to me there is not a legal negligence difference.

[JoshK]

Let me state first that I agree with you in laymans terms. But let me ask you this. How, legally, is ramping velocity in violation of the only scientifically published standards (as requested by the manufacturers) (ASTM) any different the enhanced triggers in violation of the same standards? Not to say that I don't see the obvious difference from playing, but it seems to me there is not a legal negligence difference.

I agree...the only time ramping is ok in my mind is when it's allowed. And then it isn't even ramping...it is like PSP mode or something like that.

[CKY_Alliance]

Let me state first that I agree with you in laymans terms. But let me ask you this. How, legally, is ramping velocity in violation of the only scientifically published standards (as requested by the manufacturers) (ASTM) any different the enhanced triggers in violation of the same standards? Not to say that I don't see the obvious difference from playing, but it seems to me there is not a legal negligence difference.

Ehhh...having trouble comprehending..ok i didnt say ramping velocity was criminal negligence but its against the rules so he acted negligent..he knew it could harm someone but yet he did it anyway..how is ramping velocity in violation of ASTM..i couldnt tell you casue im not up on ASTM standards for this sort of thing if there is any...umm thats the best i can do...you confused me sorta.

EDIT; in my last post when i said i dont have a problem with rampign shots i meant when its allowed by the rules...i should have said that.

[GA Devil]

ok look at it this way. there is speed limits for cars. When you go over that and get caught the government takes legal action, hence a ticket or worse depending how bad you were endangering others with the speed you were at. How is that different then with ramping velocity on that paintball field? how many serious injuries due to totally unsafe acts will it take? yes you take a risk walkign on the field but there are a set of rules in place to protect you as well. once someone breaks a rule that causes bodily harm on purpose then it becomes a legal issue. And no waiver is goign to stand up against that.

[Lohman446]

I agree...the only time ramping is ok in my mind is when it's allowed. And then it isn't even ramping...it is like PSP mode or something like that.

I think, even when allowed - in PSP, if someone were to be injured you would face definite civil liability. I also belevie you could face criminal negligence for your failure to follow "published safety guidelines". Though as has been pointed out in previous discussions there is a big difference between could and would. No where do I know that PSP specifies enhanced triggers as legal, they specify the tests they do and it must pass. Rather than saying you can ramp to 15BPS they say you may not exceed 15BPS. Rather than saying you can ramp after three shots they say the first three shots must be semi. I hate to tell you this guys, there leaving you, as players, in a legal environment that isn't exactly safe. And yes, I have talked to my lawyer about this issue - end result, even where allowed I use strict semi mode.