Legal Action against cheaters in PB?

[mobsterboy]

ok
theres a line
When you enter a tourney, they have rules. Rules that might be the very defining point between a paintball gun as a toy and a paintball gun as a weapon. 300 is the absolute MAX you should be FIRING your gun at, not what you CHRONO at. I dont care if your marker is the most constant and doesnt miss a beat, its not safe. So once you cross that line, i believe your marker goes from a piece of equipment to a weapon thats true potential is to hurt people. And it shows. At 350, lens' are shattered, not just cracked. At 350, a person who could have never had any heart issues could suddenly have a heart attack because of a few strong hits to the chest. At 350, you are no longer playing by the rules. Therefore, it should be a case of Injury Compensation, Assault with intent to harm, and a 1 year ban from ALL TOURNEY PLAY, BIG OR SMALL. I truly believe in this, because just as our judicial system is, 1 chance is given. Think about it, how many people do you think would really chance for cheating if their clean(or dirty) criminal record, paintball playing, and money was at stake? It would be like a Root Canal, hurting at first, but to prevent future harm.

[gc82000]

wow harsh but I see your point. But it is not the issue here should the player in violation of the rukes be liable for criminal and/or civil trials. But I agree if a gun is found to have programming that allows for that blatantly negligent amount of increased speed. Said player should be banned from tourny play as well liable for criminal charges.

[staticdecay]

[staticdecay]

values

I think this list is good for me.

Eye 4 million dollars (I use my eyes to make my living as a screener)
Both for 7 million dollars (Discount rate)

Ear drum 500,000
Loss of hearing to be determined
mild 500,000
medium750000
severe 1million

Loss of life 20 million.

These prices reflect how much I feel that my body parts are worth in the event that I was wrongfully injured.

[TAG]

I question TAG's motive for this post, but this is a complex issue.

My motive? Concern....thats it. I am really tired of getting the "what cheat can you give me" or "this is the cheat we have can you do it better" calls. We have the ability to monitor the rate of fire from a great distance and with a stalker the velocity can be checked as well. I feel that someone has to take a stand on this and this is a great way to gather info concerning the feelings of the actual players. So far we have gotten a few responces here in the forums but I have gotten well over 200 emails and phone calls from all levels of this sport.

[Beemer]

Who cares???????/

Here ya go Tag

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=165257

Eye 4 million dollars (I use my eyes to make my living as a screener)
Both for 7 million dollars (Discount rate)

Might want to reconsider that figure......see here

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159758

You can have the 6.6 mil Ill keep BOTH my eyes thank you

Sorry wouldn't cut it if someone ruptured and ear drum or blew an eye out or maybe even caused permanent cosmetic damage to a person other possible injuries could include but are not limited to: blood clots, emboli and stroke or death from a traveling blood clot/emboli. I tend to think head/neck shots when I think of paintball injuries.

Ya and dont forget the blunt fource trama[BFT][welts] to the [STA] soft tissue areas. Mainly head and neck. Internal hemorrhaging into the wrong area[spinal collum] causeing partial to full paralysis [nerve damage] or death. Dont tell any one a paintball could kill ya they wont believe ya. Oh wait that was on the waiver I signed wasnt it. I remember something about death on it.

and the injury is severe.

How severe? If it sends me to the hospital my first call aint gonna be to family and the blanket will be plenty big.

I hate to tell you this guys, there leaving you, as players, in a legal environment that isn't exactly safe. And yes, I have talked to my lawyer about this issue - end result, even where allowed I use strict semi mode.

Yup me to. If asked, I cant say I didnt or dont know or dont care. How big is youre umbrella?

I feel that someone has to take a stand on this

I agree. Trouble is I found I couldnt stand alone. Even talked to some of the peeps at the CPSC. Ken Giles, Mark Kumagai[Division Director, Mechanical Engineering] Vince Amodeo[CPSC staff engineer] none could disagree or say I was wrong with my concerns about Paintball safety issues from the HP tank applications to the guns we use. In fact they agreed with me. But to get the ball rolling I would need a couple Lawyers a paralegal, a few docs includeing an eye one and a nero one not to mention a secretary, all at pro bono.

Look at the ASTM subcommittee on Paintball and see whos on it and who trys to follow it.

So where do you stand with your concerns?

For those of you that are curious....yea we are up to something.

Care to elaborate?

Peace Out.
___________________

[Scott Hudnall]

The only option to make significant industry-wide change is to go after the companies which manufacture the cheater boards and markers. They are all willing accomplices and in violation of the ASTM standards. Field liability insurance likely won't cover this situation. You'll need to name, basically, everyone involved....from the player with the mod'd marker on up to the manufacturers. Get yourself a good lawyer who can realistically discuss the details and liability issues intelligently.

And if you are going to pursue litigation, you should stop posting about it on boards such as this.

[Lohman446]

Yup me to. If asked, I cant say I didnt or dont know or dont care. How big is youre umbrella?

My liability policy is a good round figure - which is not supposed to be discussed, its enough to settle most things out of court. If you are really curios PM me and I would tell you. Well, maybe not, those figures you posted worry me, but its enough that the insurance company will provide lawyers.

That being said - one cannot protect ones self from criminal issues, which worry me far more than civil. I just don't want to spend time in jail over something I did in a game...

[Lohman446]

The only option to make significant industry-wide change is to go after the companies which manufacture the cheater boards and markers. They are all willing accomplices and in violation of the ASTM standards. Field liability insurance likely won't cover this situation. You'll need to name, basically, everyone involved....from the player with the mod'd marker on up to the manufacturers. Get yourself a good lawyer who can realistically discuss the details and liability issues intelligently.

And if you are going to pursue litigation, you should stop posting about it on boards such as this.

At this point, unless you are injured as a direct result of non-compliance what grounds do you have to pursue litigation on? ASTM compliance is not, to the best of my knowledge, anything but voluntary until the issue of negligence comes up in regards to an actual instance.

[Beemer]

That being said - one cannot protect ones self from criminal issues, which worry me far more than civil. I just don't want to spend time in jail over something I did in a game...

Hmmmmmmm.........Im the other way CMA with the civil and you will never prove intent for criminal. I would put faith in a jury of my peers and my testamony at trial for that. Its not what I do that Im concerned with, its the rest of the herd that bothers me.

[Lohman446]

Hmmmmmmm.........Im the other way CMA with the civil and you will never prove intent for criminal. I would put faith in a jury of my peers and my testamony at trial for that. Its not what I do that Im concerned with, its the rest of the herd that bothers me.

When I play I am not concerned with how I play in regards to firing modes, I'm in strict semi on all of my markers. But the reason I am is for criminal liability issues. I can't stop civil liability issues, face it in a trial there lawyer claims injury, I claim inherent risk, we sit down and settle. I dont' give them a ramping mode to claim negligence with...

[Beemer]

When I play I am not concerned with how I play in regards to firing modes, I'm in strict semi on all of my markers. But the reason I am is for criminal liability issues. I can't stop civil liability issues, face it in a trial there lawyer claims injury, I claim inherent risk, we sit down and settle. I dont' give them a ramping mode to claim negligence with...

Ok my bad. Thats a given, semi only no modes and the umbrella covers civil, criminal is very unlikely in our world. Now tell everyone else.

[Tyger]

I remember getting blasted for bringing this up once...

But you know what? As has been said nobody will care until you make them care. When a player is permanently injured die to neglagance on a manufacturer's end (ramping gun, FPS ramping gun) then they will be forced to care.

The players will believe they're impervious to legal "damage" until they get sued. All I need to do is point out the Sens / Avalance game where a player was arrested for assault (I'll find the link later) some years ago. Everyone said it was a pile of... stuff. But in the eyes of the law, the player crossed the line from the game to assault.

I've often wondered about players that brag about knocking players unconcious in print. If a player says "Oh yeah, I love shooting people in the back of the head to knock them out. I want to do it to a pro sometime." and then actually DOES it, would that be premeditated assault? The system does not recognise the legal defense "I was just kidding."

Paintball has gotten to the point where nobody is accountable for anything that happens. Everyone passes the buck to the next guy. It will remain this way until someone is singled out in court, and a judge says "Your actions directly influenced this." I think paintball could really use the wake up call, IMHO.

-Tyger

[ThePixelGuru]

I'm willing to bet very few of you have played any real contact sport. I'm not talking paintball little-gel-ball-hits-you style here, I'm talking lacrosse wow-you-just-got-tossed-into-the-air-by-a-three-hundred-pound-giant style. Or we-were-sparring-with-impact-grade-hickory-longswords-and-I-just-smacked-the-side-of-your-head style. I've been playing lacrosse for many years and I've seen a ton of illegal, dangerous hits resulting in serious injury. I saw a kid get hit in the back and have his cleat caught in the ground while he spun. His knee twisted 3/4 of a full circle with the top of his body, and his lower leg and foot just stayed right where they were before. I've seen someone get high-lowed and I've seen the resulting serious back injury. I've accidentally hit someone in the throat with my lacrosse stick and almost crushed his windpipe. I've given someone a compound fracture in their upper arm. I've been full-on clubbed in the back by a player who was just plain pissed off at me, and I've still got back problems years later. I've seen punctured and collapsed lungs, broken ribs, collarbones, arms, and anything else you can break, dislocated shoulders, shattered cups, broken teeth, and tons of blood. Not a playing season goes by where I don't hear about someone getting hit in the chest by a lacrosse ball and having his heart stop. I can tell you very confidently that, after a lacrosse ball at 100+ MPH, a paintball at 200 MPH is a picnic. Half the time I don't even feel the hit. What haven't I personally seen yet? A lawsuit.

How is it that a sport so much more violent and dangerous than paintball can keep their injuries under control? I'm not really sure, but they sure as hell don't do it by player vs. player lawsuit free-for-alls. Pro sports level fines against their athletes, but they don't get jail time for what they did in a game. They can control their athletes, and, if they can't, they can eject them. Maybe that's the problem with paintball. If you get ejected or banned from a league, well, hell, you've got like 20 more to choose from. If a pro basketball player get themselves banned from the NBA, they've got nothing else to go to, really. And that's a major setback, because they were most likely making serious money. Maybe that's the difference.

In any event, cheating is a huge problem in paintball. We've gotta do something to control it, but it's tough when there's constant bickering about the rules. "Cheater boards" should be banned, for sure. Velocity needs to stay constant. A lacrosse player can't get out on the field and stick metal spikes on his cleats after the refs check him, and we've got to make sure that paintballers can't change their equipment around when the refs aren't looking. Let's get some rules that work, but make sure that we're not hurting the players, too.

Not that I'm soft on cheaters at all. It's sort of like my stance on the death penalty. If you can figure out for sure who it is, get the bastard; but you can't. Making sure you've got the right guy is tough, and deciding who gets what in a case that big is just as tough. In paintball, who decides if a velocity spike was a freak occurrence or a malignant attempt to injure someone? Slap on the wrist, or jail time? We don't know. If we'd had the rules some of you are suggesting in lacrosse, I'd probably be in jail for the accidental hit to that kid's throat.

Well, there you are, just some food for thought. (Now 100% proofreading free!) Rip it apart, AO. :-D

[Lohman446]

ASTM standards.. I would expect that the equipment you use in lacrosse / football / baseball - especially any equipment intended by the design of the sport to make contact or fire a projectile at anotherp layer as part of the game (I don't think there are any) meet all applicable standards. Paintball markers, in non-semi mode, do not.