The legal issues around the C3

[Lohman446]

I decided to make this thread to pull it out of the main C3 discussion thread and to see what other people think. Under Michigan law all paintball markers are technically firearms, though this is not true of most laws and I have never heard of it being enforced.

Does the C3 present a new legal issue? It uses an explosion to, indirectly, fire a projectile. This should define it as a firearm under federal law as I understand it and creat all sorts of issues.

1) Its being sold mail order in violation of federal law.
2) Its being sold to minors.
3) Because the barrel is under 18" it is a short barreled rifle and again prohibited
4) Because it is over .50 caliber it becomes a "destructive device" Edit: Slarty pointed out, at least for point 4, because it is used in a sporting manner and readily acceptable for it, that it is probably exempt from destructive device classifications.

Those are my opinions, and my very well be wrong. I just wanted to know what other people thought, and perhaps make an easier thread for this topic of discussion in regards to the C3

[paullus99]

You know, you'd think Tippmann researched all of this ahead of time. Don't know how the actual law is going to be applied (since it seems like you could go either way, depending on interpretation of the law) - but I doubt a company like Tippmann would have gone ahead with something like this if they weren't covered legally.

[Lohman446]

You know, you'd think Tippmann researched all of this ahead of time. Don't know how the actual law is going to be applied (since it seems like you could go either way, depending on interpretation of the law) - but I doubt a company like Tippmann would have gone ahead with something like this if they weren't covered legally.

One would think... I wonder how they interpert it.

[SlartyBartFast]

One would think... I wonder how they interpert it.

Well, for starters, can you point us to the exact text of the US Federal definition of a firearm?

Without the wording, this is all simply idle speculation.

[Lohman446]

Well, for starters, can you point us to the exact text of the US Federal definition of a firearm?

Without the wording, this is all simply idle speculation.

(3) The term "firearm" means

(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;

Obviously there is much more to it so I left the page that can be found at, and I'm sure there are others, thats just the first one I found with the text.

Up to this point the term firearm has not applied in the federal law to markers because there is no explosion. State laws are different of course, and MI law for instance clearly states air as being one of the sources of projection.

[BigEvil]

Nowadays it doesnt really matter what the letter of the law is, all you need is one crusader on the bench and that it.

[OneEyedPimp]

Well in my expert opinion, I think it will not be considered a firearm. I say this because of a variety of reasons. The first being that the ignition of the propane does not directly act to propel the paintball. I think if, somehow, the explosion directly powerd the ball, not the gases created from it, I think we would have a problem.

The second reason is that your definition of a firearm is a rather recent one, and there are a variety of definitions for the firearm. This includes muzzle velocity, which is obiously low on the C3.

Thirdly, even if it is a firarm, I think it will be classified under blackpowder type laws, making the marker exempt from virtually every gun law in the U.S.

I will post more if I think of anything else. Keep in mind however, that every state has its own laws, therefore, I believe that each state will be forced to interpret this gun on its own, even thought that interperetation will not come until something bad happens with this gun.

[SlartyBartFast]

any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter;

Seeing as standard paintball markers haven't been subject to the definition of a firearm, when the above could be applied, why the worry now it's propane powered?

We're missing the list of exemptions I think.

[SlartyBartFast]

Nowadays it doesnt really matter what the letter of the law is, all you need is one crusader on the bench and that it.

That works BOTH ways.

One person's guerilla soldier is another's freedom fighter, and all that.

So in the interest of open and enlightened discussion let's not go down that path. If you feel the need to limit your thinking to throwing lables about, don't bother posting.

[Lohman446]

I do agree there may be no issues around this - I see the possibility there and am curious if Tippman has addressed them or not.

[slade]

(3) The term "firearm" means

(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;

the c3 fits the latter half, but is it a weapon? what is the legal definition of "weapon"? i doubt paintball markers fall under that.

any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter;

it says that shotguns are not included because they are suitable for sporting purposes, so clearly any sane person would likewise say paintball markers, regardless of the method of propulsion used, are not included under that legislation either.

[Lohman446]

the c3 fits the latter half, but is it a weapon? what is the legal definition of "weapon"? i doubt paintball markers fall under that.


it says that shotguns are not included because they are suitable for sporting purposes, so clearly any sane person would likewise say paintball markers, regardless of the method of propulsion used, are not included under that legislation either.

So thats in regards to a destructive device - but not a firearm. Your taking two sections and meshing them. A shotgun is still a firearm, it is exempt from being a destructive device.

[11 Bravo]

OMG

[WingMan13]

1) Its being sold mail order in violation of federal law.
2) Its being sold to minors.
3) Because the barrel is under 18" it is a short barreled rifle and again prohibited
4) Because it is over .50 caliber it becomes a "destructive device

Good points. Also, a FFL is needed to even manufacture a "firearm", so maybe that could be added to the list as well? (of course, we still are not 100% sure that Tippmann is in any violation)

[Lohman446]

Good points. Also, a FFL is needed to even manufacture a "firearm", so maybe that could be added to the list as well? (of course, we still are not 100% sure that Tippmann is in any violation)

The key I think hinges on if it is a firearm in the first place. We have always assumed that because there was no explosion in a paintball marker using CO2 or HPA that they were exempt, and I think that is clearly right in regards to federal law. The question is - does the explosion in the C3 constitute the explosion necessary to be a firearm, and if it does is the C3 exempt or not?