The legal issues around the C3

[SlartyBartFast]

Because once again I am under legal obligations not to say anything, I can't go into details.

Well, I hope having to keep quiet is at least half as frustrating as hearing that you know something but can't say.

I think the smart guys here are asking the right questions, typically the rest just go with the flow.

On behalf of all those asking questions, thank you for the compliment.

(I had some other nasty comments but we will leave it at that)

[Glickman]

Guys,
Do you REALLY think this product is so creative NO ONE has thought of it before??? Maybe its not THAT obvious propane could be used as a power source after browsing all the nail guns at home depot?

AGD

not really, i think its been around for a while, expecially green gas (just propane, a lubricant, and a fragrance) in airsoft as i stated earlier. but what i do think is relatively new (to me atleast) is the way the C3 combusts to move the ball. i wouldnt be surprised if you had planned on marketing something like this already in that endless ingenious thinktank of yours , but ive, and apparently most other people havent heard of something that combusts to move the ball.

as far as the pepperballs go, i dont think it nessissarily needs to be pepperballs to get paintball guns classified as "dangerous" (although pepperballs wouldnt nessissarily help), just even some idiot kid shooting the wrong guy in the street. i do agree that the ATF has pretty much ignored paintball as a serious threat though.

[phantomhitman]

I posted this on a few other forums, so why not here.

There are all kinds of stories going around about counties and even states wanting to ban paintball because of the ignorant people in our sport (shooting signs, buildings, or even people). If they take that so seriously, and even attempting to, and successfully halting some (silencers), of the after market scenario mods you have to questions this. People have already started screwing with this gun trying to make it break or roast marshmellows. This would give a smart lawyer or judge with a vendetta against paintball the reason he/she needs to ban this gun and further hurt the sport in general. If they can do more over smaller issues I think the new tippmann gun would be considered a weapon of mass destruction.

[shartley]

Or, sign on with another username and have at it.

[Muzikman]

I agree...

(Shutter)

[11 Bravo]

In the end you are going to find that this is all about nothing. Tippmann has the drive to continue to be innovative unlike some companies. They continue to find better ways to build a mouse trap at a low cost. Maybe if they were threatened with legal action they would try and find a way to avoid it and still come up with new designs, without giving up and saying Oh we cant do that.

[Muzikman]

In the end you are going to find that this is all about nothing. Tippmann has the drive to continue to be innovative unlike some companies. They continue to find better ways to build a mouse trap at a low cost. Maybe if they were threatened with legal action they would try and find a way to avoid it and still come up with new designs, without giving up and saying Oh we cant do that.

And I am sure your years of paintball development and years of involvement in the industry tell you this. Maybe you traveled back in time to tell us this after seeing 5-10 years into the future.

It's not like a paintball company has never been sued or made to stop producing a product because the government had stepped in.

[Muzikman]

You can buy the pepper balls in some states and they are .68 cal. Even the FN rounds are .68 cal, though I have been trying to buy the marking FN rounds for over a year now and have not been able to no matter what state you are in.

Also, the government stepped in and stopped the development and sale of the BOA Concealer.

[Lohman446]

In the end you are going to find that this is all about nothing. Tippmann has the drive to continue to be innovative unlike some companies. They continue to find better ways to build a mouse trap at a low cost. Maybe if they were threatened with legal action they would try and find a way to avoid it and still come up with new designs, without giving up and saying Oh we cant do that.

I would like to think that Tippman has already addressed this. Do you conceive the difference between the threat of civil litigation and the threat of criminal penalties for violation of federal firearm laws? Major difference, its one thing to take risks in regards to civil penalties, quite another to take risks with criminal.

Considering TKs statement, and the fact that AGD was THE innovator in alternative power sources at one point (recall the search for a source that was better than CO2) I would think that he may have far more knowledge on this, from both the technical and legal aspects of this.

Patent violation: Might lead to civil (monetary penalties), likely avoided by a simple cease and desist agreement.
Federal firearms violation: in addition to civil penalties may also include criminal fines and jail time.

[11 Bravo]

I would like to think that Tippman has already addressed this. Do you conceive the difference between the threat of civil litigation and the threat of criminal penalties for violation of federal firearm laws? Major difference, its one thing to take risks in regards to civil penalties, quite another to take risks with criminal.

Considering TKs statement, and the fact that AGD was THE innovator in alternative power sources at one point (recall the search for a source that was better than CO2) I would think that he may have far more knowledge on this, from both the technical and legal aspects of this.

Patent violation: Might lead to civil (monetary penalties), likely avoided by a simple cease and desist agreement.
Federal firearms violation: in addition to civil penalties may also include criminal fines and jail time.

I have to ask do you think that Tippmann did not think of looking into what the BATF would think of this gun? I am sure they didnt just put it out there and hope nothing happens. The owners of Tippmann put a lot of money into the company and I am sure that they are not going to risk it on being stupid.
We could all be wrong. None of us has seen the gun. It could be the most dangerous piece of krud ever produced. If someone modifies the gun it could be dangerous, but that is true with all markers. Then again it could be the new "wonder system" and is impossible to modify. None of us knows yet. So its kind of pointless. TK brought up nail guns that use gas as the driving force. Should those fall under gun laws?
And yes AGD was an innovator and a great one. I am going to leave it at that, theres more that could be said. That would turn this into a Tippmann vs. AGD thread and I dont want to do that.

[Lohman446]

I have to ask do you think that Tippmann did not think of looking into what the BATF would think of this gun? I am sure they didnt just put it out there and hope nothing happens. The owners of Tippmann put a lot of money into the company and I am sure that they are not going to risk it on being stupid.
We could all be wrong. None of us has seen the gun. It could be the most dangerous piece of krud ever produced. If someone modifies the gun it could be dangerous, but that is true with all markers. Then again it could be the new "wonder system" and is impossible to modify. None of us knows yet. So its kind of pointless. TK brought up nail guns that use gas as the driving force. Should those fall under gun laws?
And yes AGD was an innovator and a great one. I am going to leave it at that, theres more that could be said. That would turn this into a Tippmann vs. AGD thread and I dont want to do that.

I am curious if Tippman looked into this or not and what the conclusion was. I'm not the only person who wonders. No, its not conceited, I don't know if the thought ever even crossed anyone's mind in the development of this. Often one does not consider every aspect of what they are doing and how it could be taken differently than they mean.

[11 Bravo]

We could also be living in two totally different worlds and not understand where the other is coming from. I live in a state that is pretty much no nonsense and has common sense when it comes to the lives of its citizens (unless your Rush Limbough). Other states may be a little different so I will differ to your point as to where and how paintball may be affected in your area.
I have read posts from people in other areas of the country that honestly supprised me. I would have thought some of these stories would have come from a less free country. Such as the Soviet Union. So from my point of view here in Florida I dont think its a big deal, but I can see where in other areas it may be.

[Muzikman]

Just because you are in Florida doesn't mean you are safe. People have this strange thought that states rights still exist or something.

[11 Bravo]

Okay I give up.
I was just trying to point out that we are probably coming at this from two different life experiences. From two different areas of the country. Lets not get into state rights.

And I appologize for being sarcastic yesterday, maybe it was the hurricane :) .

[SlartyBartFast]

At least the level of discussion has improved.

I have to ask do you think that Tippmann did not think of looking into what the BATF would think of this gun?

Considering that Tippmann previously got into hot water with the BATF over the production of their fully functional scale model gattling gun, I'd think they have a history to worry about.

If they have looked into it, it would enlightening for them to come forward with the information.

I live in a state that is pretty much no nonsense and has common sense when it comes to the lives of its citizens.

Never trust common sense. Trust only the written law.

Laws and their effects have nothing to do with any concept of "free". Many people confuse freedom and democracy with being allowed to live as they please. Whether you're living in the same room as someone, the house, or the same community, balance has to made between collective and individual rights and freedoms.

Falling into the trap of discussing the Soviet Union or dictatorships is just wrong. That's not where any of us live. Do I have more freedom than you because I can drive faster on my highways than you? No.

Do I think you have more freedom because you can obtian handguns with a barrel shorter than I can? No.

But you have to admit that even in Florida, the classification of paintball equipment under firearms regulations could have a hugely detrimental effect on the paintball industry.

No one will come to the defense of a sport that uses firearms to shoot at live participants.