"Im ok with capped 15BPS ramping" - opinions?

[warbeak2099]

Do any of you use bounce in games with your mags? Reactive, rapid-fire, whatever you want to call it. Is that also unsafe since you are getting high rates of fire? Yea, but I don't see to many people on here complaining about that. Bouncing an RT valved mag can get you a lot higher than 15bps.

And what is the safe speed to you Lohman? What do you think it should be, I am interested to know. Because whatever number you choose, it's going to be a magic number like you said. If it's 13bps, then why not 14bps? I'm interested in hearing your idea of the "safe" speed.

[hardr0ck68]

Ok, the unfortunate thing i thing everyone is forgetting is "the bottom line". In this sport players vote with their wallet, not their respoce some thread on a happy little forum. When timmys came out they were the first cheater guns from the factory, people would drop the debounce and watch the bps go up up up. Timmys became "a fast gun" and the days of "he's fast on that trigger" were long gone.

Now i like what you guys are saying, i believe many of the same things. But its a joke to think that any standards or morals would stop bob long from doing it all again. What i would like to see is a league that is strictly grav feed and mechanical, i think that would bring some skill back to the game.

BTW, back in the days of honnest electros Chris lasoya won an award for being the fastest trigger at IAO, he pulled 13bps. Chris laysoa, angel, electro trigger, NO BOUNCE, no loader limitations = 13 bps. So when kiddies say "i his 24 easy" just understand they mean 8; its the rule of 3 people!!!.

[Lohman446]

Do any of you use bounce in games with your mags? Reactive, rapid-fire, whatever you want to call it. Is that also unsafe since you are getting high rates of fire? Yea, but I don't see to many people on here complaining about that. Bouncing an RT valved mag can get you a lot higher than 15bps.

And what is the safe speed to you Lohman? What do you think it should be, I am interested to know. Because whatever number you choose, it's going to be a magic number like you said. If it's 13bps, then why not 14bps? I'm interested in hearing your idea of the "safe" speed.

Because I don't think that there is a correlation between ball 1 and 2 or 3 or 4 I really could care less if we are ramping well in excess of the physical limits of loaders today. It would not pose such a risk that I would quit playing, or beleive playing was any more inherently dangerous than it is with one pull one shot.

[Lohman446]

Ok, the unfortunate thing i thing everyone is forgetting is "the bottom line". In this sport players vote with their wallet, not their respoce some thread on a happy little forum. When timmys came out they were the first cheater guns from the factory, people would drop the debounce and watch the bps go up up up. Timmys became "a fast gun" and the days of "he's fast on that trigger" were long gone.

Now i like what you guys are saying, i believe many of the same things. But its a joke to think that any standards or morals would stop bob long from doing it all again. What i would like to see is a league that is strictly grav feed and mechanical, i think that would bring some skill back to the game.

BTW, back in the days of honnest electros Chris lasoya won an award for being the fastest trigger at IAO, he pulled 13bps. Chris laysoa, angel, electro trigger, NO BOUNCE, no loader limitations = 13 bps. So when kiddies say "i his 24 easy" just understand they mean 8; its the rule of 3 people!!!.

This was never meant to be against ramping... I was just trying to figure out why 15 was hte magic "ok" number. I have no delusion of the bottom line. If I did I would post very little on this message board. That does not mean we, as players, cannot discuss it.

[Lohman446]

I believe 15 is the highest reasonable number achievable by most players.

This is important because it would be difficult to prove negligence if the ROF was within a majority of players capabilities. No manufacturer wants to be sued for negligence, it could be criminal.

So, a ramping marker just makes it easier to accomplish something that one would already be capable of doing with some practice.

How about this theory, or set of events

1) Before PSP had officially announced the change to 15BPS ramping SP had started to release markers with 15BPS capped ramping.
2) In my experience Shocker detents, fed by a halo, tend to fail past 15BPS and allow multiple balls to be fed causing breaks.
3) SP, and there sponsored teams, are a major part of PSP.

I think there is a reason for the cap at 15, I don't think it has anything to do with safety.

Edit: Just an added side note - the first few Shockers I had that had ramping ran 13 over the big red chronos... maybe there was a reason for that number being chosen as well.

[Coralis]

Personally I think its generally safer to have a marker that has to ramp to get to 15bps than one that can be shot in semi mode that fast. I know that sounds stupid when you first hear it but how many times have you seen these people with the triggers that are tuned so tight that the the gun shoots when the set it down etc. To me ramping is a better solution that the breathe on me trigger , 3 shot burst , full auto because of the control aspect of it , that being said 15 bps is a pretty insane rate of fire and probably too high for rec ball ( just my opinion there). I know I wouldnt want to take my 12 year old nephew out to his first game if everyone was shooting at that rate of fire because I doubt he would enjoy getting tore up when he make a natural noob mistake .

Well anyway thats my two cents on the issue.

[Lohman446]

Personally I think its generally safer to have a marker that has to ramp to get to 15bps than one that can be shot in semi mode that fast. I know that sounds stupid when you first hear but how many times have you seen these people with the triggers that are tuned so tight that the the gun shoots when the set it down etc. To me ramping is a better solution that the breath on me trigger , 3 shot burst , full auto because of the control aspect of it , that being said 15 bps is a pretty insane rate of fire and probably too high for rec ball ( just my opinion there). I know I wouldnt want to take my 12 year old nephew out to his first game if everyone was shooting at that rate of fire because I doubt he would enjoy getting tore up when he make a natural noob mistake .

Well anyway thats my two cents on the issue.

Those triggers are/were illegal under most major event rules as well as in clear violation of ASTM standards as well.

[warbeak2099]

I don't think you'll ever see the limit go down to 12-13 simply because it would sound bad to kids who are used to getting their guns as fast as possible. Is 13bps still enough to keep someone down behind a bunker? Yea, sure it is. Is it enough to lane or post, of course. But it doesn't sound cool. I wouldn't have a problem with 12-13bps capped ramping. But for now, 15bps is the lowest they're gonna go. And that's fine too. As long as it doesn't go above 15. I just think around 15 is a safe speed. And in response to the "well why not 16?" statement, you have to set the cap somewhere. Of coure there's going to be the magic number, there has to be. A tourny can't just say, "well, the cap is anywhere around 15."

[peewee]

hardr0ck68 Ok, the unfortunate thing i thing everyone is forgetting is "the bottom line". In this sport players vote with their wallet, not their respoce some thread on a happy little forum.

But is in an open discussion such as this that we as players can decide that we wont buy a particular item or voice our dislike of a product that is possibly dangerous & possibly have the manufacturers take note. I vote with my money. I will admit I had a ramping marker but got rid of it & I wont buy another.

[bleachit]

2) If there is a risk, then every ball in that air contributes. However I do not think the individual balls are correlated. For instance if the chances of being injured by any individual ball is 1/Trillion the chance of being injured by five balls is not 5/Trillion but 1/trillion 1/trillion 1/trillion etc. Each ball is a seperate occurance and we cannot add them up. The first ball has nothing to do with the second or third, etc.

I am going to disagree with you here. The correlation is not in how many balls are fired but in how fast the balls are fired. One paintball alone most likely will not injure you. However, repeated hits to one area will have an increased likelyhood of causing an injury. With a higher rate of fire you are putting more paint in the air, and the easier it is to do that the more accurate your string of balls is. So if I put 15 balls in one sec in the same 2 inches on an individual, then there is a very good chance its going to result in a lot of pain at the very least. If its in an exposed area on the head or neck, then more damage is very likely.

now, if I am only firing 10 balls per second, for instance, the paint is not coming as fast, and if you are not ramping, say just walking the trigger in "pure" semi mode, then your marker is probably wobblying around a bit. This means that your string of paint is not as likely to land in the same 2 inches as if you are ramping. The decrease in accuracy and lower ROF will mean less paint hitting the same area which may mean a less chance in a serious injury.

to be honest, I have never fired a ramping marker, so the accuracy compared with a 'pure' semi is speculation, so correct me if I am wrong. However, I have fired a semi e spyder and a full auto e spyder and the marker is more accurate in full auto over semi w/ trigger walking. That results from how you hold the marker, the full auto allowing you to hold tighter for a tighter shot grouping.

well thats my 2 cents.

[Lohman446]

You lost me on the odds. If its one in a hundred with one ball its five in a hundred with five balls.

Though bleachit makes an interesting counter argument for correlation I do not think so. Take this example. You and I decide to play Russian Roulette. Lets get rid of some things here - this gun is truly random on the spin, the weigth of the bullet, the mechanics of the gun, etc all have no factor. If you pull the trigger on the loaded cylinder it will go off, no misfires. Get rid of variables for the example.

I spin the cylinder and pull the trigger. 1/6 odds of it going off.
I spin the cylinder again and pull the trigger. Odds are still 1/6, no correlation to the pull before or after. This is how I beleive it is with paintballs, no correlation. If I spin the cylinder each time, and do it six times the odds are not 6/6 (perfect) that it will go off. No correlation. This is how I beleive balls in the air are. Or are more like, again bleachit raises a great point.

As to the one shot to a sensitive area. There is a massive difference between a ball fired at me and a ball fired with the intent to do as much harm as possible. I don't play with people who I beleive would do the second.

[bleachit]

whether or not someone intends to do the harm, if you stick your head out for 1 second and 15 balls hit you in the same spot.. its gonna hurt, a lot.

I still believe that the higher the bps the more chances of a serious injury. I understand where you are getting your odds from, but realistically repeated hits will begin to add up over time, something your odds are not taking into account


edit: I have never heard of an individual getting knocked or suffering a concussion from one hit to the head, but I have heard of instances where that happens when they are hit 15 plus times. not saying 1 ball hasnt knocked someone out or given them a concussion, because it is possible, just less likely than mulitple rounds doing the damage.

[Beemer]

Do any of you use bounce in games with your mags

No. The Mag RT is trigger return assist not pull assist. Not TRUE semi I agree but still 1 shot 1 pull The bolt and trig still does a full cycle. 800psi max and you need more then that to sweetspot, unless you mod it in some way or the sear is worn.

I think there is a reason for the cap at 15, I don't think it has anything to do with safety.

Hmm, intresting thought. The fact that gets me is it is still against ASTM Standards no matter how you look at it.

As to the one shot to a sensitive area. There is a massive difference between a ball fired at me and a ball fired with the intent to do as much harm as possible. I don't play with people who I beleive would do the second.

Ok, you miss my point. It was 1 shot for a test to see how people felt about it. When you step on the field at your level you are taking that chance on one shot, are you not?

No offense and not to sound conceited.[I am] I played play at or beyond your level. We were beating the pros when I stepped away from the tourny scene.

I have no intent and wish you no harm in the game EVER. Why would I want to bunker you if I dont think or know your protection is safe enough? So I come over the top or down the side to bunker you and snap shoot 3bps one of those is the Magic ball headshot that does you harm. Whats the odds? I have no intent. Now I do it at 15bps whats the odds now?

Heres the thought. If I step on your field at our level I will be protected for it and would like you to be also. If not then I certainly wouldnt bunker you.

I agree with bleachit also.

Peace Out

to add Here is Butterfingers Thread

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=119107&highlight=action+potentials

and another with High speed camera

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=543000

Here is 15bps.wav with ramping to 15 in the back ground

http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/15Shotssec.wav

[lather]

When you are discussing if something you did was negligent or not safety standards that are not law can have an impact on the decision. I feel I am pretty safe when I stick to ASTM standards, in that I can point out that here are scientific standards that I was told, by the ASTM were safe. If I go outside of them, what do I have to point to to prove I was not negligent?

Im no lawyer but I fail to see negligence if you are at an event which allows 15 bps ramping, injure someone, but your gun is legally set at 15 bps ramping. If you are following the rules of the event and as long as you had no malicious intent, there is not much to worry about.

I would think that most lawyers would prefer to target manufacturers and business rather than individuals--especially if said individual did not injure someone with the intent to cause harm.

Personally id feel more concerned with legalities if I shot my neighbor accidently with my 1 bps Phantom in my back yard, than shooting someone at 15 bps at a sanctioned event.

Im not a fan of ramping either and I agree with you in principle. However, I think that the legalities of exceeding ASTM standards would be much more of a concern to manufacturers rather than an individual, as long as the individual did not show intent to cause harm.

[mobsterboy]

no offense Lohman, but is there a reason why you keep asking these questions? (after all you are a repeated offender of ramping threads) does this help you sleep at night? Are you looking for a special answer that will make your dreams come true? they set it not for safety, but for evenness, for equality, so that the lesser guns wont get blown away by 30 bps guns. Its not safety, its leveling the playing field to an extent.