All the AO flames.

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by shartley
See? It is ALL Foo's fault! Someone git' the rope!

YEAH! LETS PLAY HANGMAN WITH A REAL PERSON! lol... But seriously. I'm not the only person who did that... I didn't even start it. I just decided to join in.

[mattyfatty182]

For most of you, this will be a hard pill to swallow, but here it goes:

I personally think we should close down the regristration system. Why? Because most of the people who make the "attention getting" threads have recently regristered. Same with the people who just got banned for a week. Look around (on the website silly ) and you will see that we already have a knowledgeable enough group to support AO for as long as we feel that we need. The same goes for George Bush. He is already talking about raising the budget for the "Homeland Security" group. There's a simple solution, GW, CLOSE THE BORDERS. Our country works fine today, why do we need any more illegal/legal immagrants? All of our McDonalds are staffed, and it would help lighten the load on our already strained Charities/Welfare program.

Just my ramble.

[cledford]

I agree with Russ, and...

First point - AO does enjoy a scandal. I think what really needs to occur here is that everyone needs to step back, think for a second, then honestly answer this question: Is AO a club for 'Mag (or other AGD product owners) or is it an open forum? The consider this: Which would appeal more to non-mag (but potential) owners? Most people don't like getting involved with a group where they feel that they are on the outside and not welcome in. In some cases people come to the board under bad times, only for the whole situation to turn around and they become great members. (Take my story - which follows in this post)

I personally think the mods are saddled with a difficult task - but at the same time sometimes think they might be taking things a little more seriously then necessary. BUT, one has to know how they view the site to really understand their motivations. I will say that often I see punishments handed out in almost an elementary school fashion - with the offender being publicly hauled out, and the whole issue brought to light when had it been dealt with quietly I would have probably have never known, and been happier to have not been involved. I don't disagree with the efforts to keep things clean here - but disagree with the drama.

Second matter - I think for the forum to truly prosper, and get the message out the AGD is shooting for (educate the masses) things need to be a little more tolerant, and a little less "clubish" here. It's great that we all support Tom and his company, but really it's all just us preaching to the choir if no one else from the outside comes here. I've had people tell me that they've check out AO and like the format, and the fact that Tom posts, but then in the next sentence state that they get a sense of closed mindedness at the site - which keeps them away and on forums that they consider "open" - like WarPig or Paintball Nation.

Sometimes I get a little concerned about the responses to some of the negative posts. I realize that most are BS, but there is a fine line between controlling slander, and censorship. One of my first posts on the forum was a pretty harsh look at the Emag. (My first one didn't work upon purchase) Everything in it was true, and yeah there was some emotion as well, but hey - I felt I needed to vent after spending $1000 on something that didn't work correctly. (In fact I felt like deserved it) I had never dealt with AGD support (for a problem that is) before that point, and even though they had a great rep, I was still hopping mad at first. I had a bad run with an AA Apocalypse, AA Armageddon, Warp Feed, and then Emag all not working upon purchase. I was a little sensitive about everything, and took it out here - but did not embellish, did not exaggerate, and did not make anything up. For all of my efforts a mod deleted my post, and then deleted my post proclaiming censorship as well. That's not cool, and was almost the breaking point with me and the company. The turning point was when Tom called me personally and made everything right. I now consider myself a huge ambassador for AGD, and try to spread the good word where ever I go - even to the extent of letting people shoot MY paint, through MY Emag to show them how awesome it is.

My big point in the above rant (I can be long winded) is that an over-zealous mod almost broke what has turned out to be a great relationship between me and Airgun - before Tom or his company even had a chance to do anything about it. When I read posts like the one accusing Jon of freaking out on the phone, everyone and their brother (mods and members) jumped in on behalf of Jon and AGD, but hey - no one really knows what happened expect the dude, and Jon. Once it got all sorted out someone could have made a single post in explanation, then locked the thread. As I read all of the "supporting" posts I thought to myself "This has got to be BS, but I don't really know for sure. No one else does either - so how would this look to a non-AO member?" My conclusion was that it could look like a cover up - the guy was already being accused of being a flamer, and was being challenged for not responding - when things were only 8 hours old. Personally, I don't think any of it happened the way it was written - we all know/have dealt with Jon and couldn't believe it - but the key is how would it look to an outsider who doesn't/hasn't interacted with him? Aren't there customer service travesties everyday? If you haven't dealt with Jon before, isn't it possible to consider that everything may have went down the way it was written, and we were all covering up? To avoid such an appearance I suggest locking the flames, doing an investigation (best left to AGD staff), and then posting a single reply, then relocking.

Oh, and I don't think that in general the unwanted goings-ons are hurting the legitimacy of the board - they happen every where. It doesn't stop people from surfing any of the other 5 boards I actively monitor. I think the real threat is looking overly biased to the real people we need to bring here - those potential AGD customers still on the fence.

Finally, one last question: What do we think is Tom's motivation is for bringing us this site? Simply to create a "club" environment? Maybe, I think he cares about us more then any other vendor does about their customers, and wants to reward us for our loyality. But - I'm also fairly sure he wants to use it a vehicle to bring as many into the fold also - we need to help support him in that effort.

-Calvin Ledford

[wimag]

I usually despise seeing Foo's posts but after unfortunately reading this thread a few of his remarks were right on. Lighten up, it's a fricking website.

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by wimag
I usually despise seeing Foo's posts but after unfortunately reading this thread a few of his remarks were right on. Lighten up, it's a fricking website.

I'm sorry that you hate every one of my posts. Even the sensible ones...

[wimag]

no need to apologize. yeah that was funny, "sensible ones" woohoohoo you crack me up,needed that, thanks

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by wimag
no need to apologize. yeah that was funny, "sensible ones" woohoohoo you crack me up,needed that, thanks

Sometimes it's needed!

[Paintchucker]

Why Foo ???

It seems that your post count was zero'd out because of post whoring. I guess it did no good, as you are almost back to 200 in a week???

[2000Sabre]

One of the reasons I log into the AO forum each in every day is threads like this. This is a classic case of a good, civilized discussion. It'something I enjoy, especially when you can offer a different opinion without slamming someone. I think this is one of the reasons why Tom keeps AO alive at his own expense.

As far as postwhoring goes I can live with it but would prefer not to see it happen as frequently as it does here. My opinion is if you want to make a short, cute remark to someones's post, send them a PM that's what it's there for.

I also believe in something Shartley said a long time ago. If you don't have anything to add or it's already been said before there's no need to post. Sometimes lurking on the board is equally as satisfying as posting a reply. Maybe if we all excerised this just a little more AO would be a better place.

I also feel that people should take the time to read a post before they reply. Too often I see posts where some replies are totally off track or the intent or spirit of the thread been severely misunderstood. Next thing you know the thread becomes a flame war because someone said something someone didn't like. Come on guys, we're all human beings and all have different opinions. We should take the time to respect each other even though we may not agree with this persons viewpoint. I don't think our first reaction should be to insult someone. If you feel strongly about it, state your case with facts with a rebuttal or take it off line and address the person via a PM. Let's not let our emotions get the best of us.

When it comes to AGD we all know they make great products because we use them, but I also believe that they're not perfect and it's OK to critize them. I don't think Tom would respect us very much if all we did was tell him how great he was. I also don't believe the forum is the place that AGD expects to attract the majority of it's new customers. I think that battle belongs in the proshops, on the playing fields and in the industry magazines. How and when AGD choses do this is up to them, not me and you. The forum should be a place for people to supplement their knowledge of AGD products and to get advice before and after making a purchase. That should include both praise and critisim. I know I wouldn't respect the forum if it were only just a big love fest. To this end I think AO serves that purpose very well.

Congratulations AO, I think this thread shows we can conduct a conversation with some class and respect one another. Keep it up

[FooTemps]

Re: Why Foo ???

Originally posted by Paintchucker
It seems that your post count was zero'd out because of post whoring. I guess it did no good, as you are almost back to 200 in a week???

Look, You can't always associate high post count with post whoring. I don't really postwhore anymore. I just post a lot. I probably haven't had more than 5 posts so far that were post whoring...

[magic55]

you guys really need to lighten up. Is there anyone here who hasn't argued with someone before? all flames are is when a lot of people try to voice their opionions and get very involved in it.

Whenever somebody says something, the next ten posts are saying the exact same thing until one person says something different then everyone says that. so theres something that you could work on, if someone already said it don't keep going on and on about the same darn thing.

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

ok, we all love AGD. it's a great company, makes great products, and supports it's customers better than any other company in the paintball business(IMO). however, another thing i don't understand is that people defend it like it were their child. ok, i'll stick up for mags up to a certain point, but come on. it's just a paintball gun. do people just have nothing better to do besides bicker over which gun is better? so what? besides all that, it's the player, not the gun. hell, i don't even think mags are the best guns out there. they're still my favorite, but i don't think they're the best. overall, i would take a good mag over pretty much any gun. but why get all bent out of shape over some moron that's just there to cause problems? all you're doing is adding fuel to the fire and doing exactly what he wants. it just seems to me that if people would use their heads, and in some cases, were a little more mature, there would be far fewer problems if any.

[Bad Dave]

The credibility of AGD is still important to me, I feel more connected to AGD than I do to any other company even though I do not own any of their products currently.

This forum is responsible for that I feel, it seems Tom is on my level and everyone gets to share in the 'secrets' he knows and the projects he is working on. I have recently seen a small resurgence in AGD products with a new team starting out. I sold my RT to one of them and the rest are toting mags or RTs, WHY? Largely due to this website.

On the way out to a tourney a couple of weeks back me and my bud were talking bout internet sites and we both agreed that AO has the best 'community feel' of all the other sites. I find pbnation to be a bit soulless and harsh whereas AO is a much more friendly place, lets keep it that way.

The thing about postwhoring is that it denigrates the post whore, I have seen some helpful posts by Foo temps in the past but I don't think people pay attention if you postwhore. You can have a laugh or you can have credibility it seems to me. I'm not saying this forum should be grey and drab but a balance should be struck. There are some 'fun' threads and 'technical' threads, all you have to do is match the content of your post to the thread its in.

[Russ]

BadDave brings up an interesting issue...

...even though I do not own any of their products currently.

A lot of folks who have very vocal opinions about AGD, products, "brand loyalty", etc. have very few or don't even own ANY AGD products. It's easy to say how much one supports a company, it's another to actually support that company with their WALLETS!

Heck, I do!

[cphilip]

Re: I agree with Russ, and...

Originally posted by cledford
When I read posts like the one accusing Jon of freaking out on the phone, everyone and their brother (mods and members) jumped in on behalf of Jon and AGD, but hey - no one really knows what happened expect the dude, and Jon. Once it got all sorted out someone could have made a single post in explanation, then locked the thread. As I read all of the "supporting" posts I thought to myself "This has got to be BS, but I don't really know for sure. No one else does either - so how would this look to a non-AO member?" My conclusion was that it could look like a cover up - the guy was already being accused of being a flamer, and was being challenged for not responding - when things were only 8 hours old. Personally, I don't think any of it happened the way it was written - we all know/have dealt with Jon and couldn't believe it - but the key is how would it look to an outsider who doesn't/hasn't interacted with him? Aren't there customer service travesties everyday? If you haven't dealt with Jon before, isn't it possible to consider that everything may have went down the way it was written, and we were all covering up? To avoid such an appearance I suggest locking the flames, doing an investigation (best left to AGD staff), and then posting a single reply, then relocking.

-Calvin Ledford

Calvin, I want to take a moment and respond to your commets. I was the Mod stuck with dealing with this. For your information a lot was done behind the sceens to try and verify this guys story. In fact I spent most of two days trying to converse with him. Trying to get him to give me one little thing to work with. And in fact am still doing so. It was left open until that had all but failed in order to NOT LOOK LIKE A COVER UP! My Call. Locking the thread early on like you suggest is exactly the kind of thing you complain about. Still he refuses to give us anything to go on. So at some point I must protect the accused person from further damage. This is his job and future we are talking about here. This was a serious accusation that should not be considered trivial fodder for the boards of AO. Still I left it open for as long as I felt that I could with fair warning and a time limit. Taht was about 24 hours from the first of his post. I think that was fair. youwill notice it was monitored very carefully. No one got out of hand. I suggest you go back and read my Moderating of that thread. You are insinuating some things that are not fact.

I can tell all of you this much: The only name he has provided to us is not a registered owner of an Emag. He will not provide the serial number. When challenged with the fact that NO EMAG WAS REGISTERED TO THAT NAME. He then tells me he used the previous owners name to do it. OK so possibel so I ask for that or the serail number again. But he will not tell me that name is! Or the serial number. At some point I gotta call BS. So I am. He is still talking to me through email as of this morning but refuses to give me any info to even verify any of his story. I have offered many times to reopen the thread if he does and tell what facts I have. But at this point I HAVE NONE! His fault not mine. I am open to anything he can provide that would shed any light on this. But there at this point are to many inconsistencies and total uncooperation from him for me to do anything to give him any credibitily. I have told him repeatedly that AGD has offered to, at their expense, have the marker fixed or replaced. He responds with nothing but contemptuous statements about AGD and Tom. No facts. Nothing to work with. I am giving up. I have done all I can to help him. Marcia has too. And I surely hope that the members here are not so inclined to think like you that we would not. I work hard to try and keep things flowing and mediate these kinds of things when they come up as fairly as possible. I think most of the members know my style. You seem to not so I am explaining it to you for the future. So I hope you can see a little bit more now of what has gone on behind the scenes. It was not done in haste without thought as my reading of your comments seems to imply. it was done openly, fairly and with much effort to seek the truth. Anyone who can see cover up in what I did is unfairly looking for something that is not there.

I am sorry about what happened to you when you had your problems but I would not have done that which you describe. That is not the spirit of AO which Tom has asked us to uphold.

Respectfully submitted

cphilip of AO