What does supporting NPPL give to you?

[raehl]

Ahh yes, but calling the D3 entry fee low is a very very relative term is it not?

It's not. "Low" is an absolute term. That's why I didn't call them "low". I called them "lower", which is, in fact, relative.

[Lohman446]

It's not. "Low" is an absolute term. That's why I didn't say "low". I said "lower", which is, in fact, relative.

Someday I'll learn to read closer. You have a reasonable argument, one I disagree with. As was pointed out, things like major league baseball are not supported by the players of the lower divisions, nor auto racing (even in its infancy before it "grew"), nor most any other sport. In essence what is happening, it seems to me, is the large tournament series are supporting themselves on the entrance fees of the lower divisions, letting the pro teams get near 100% payback (or even say 80%). These leagues almost seem to exist to serve the pro players... I don't know..

If all I get out of supporting the NPPL is a chance for the pro players to play (and recall I don't see them as a whole representing what I would like to see in paintball) I guess I really don't care.

Its not as much about the prizes not given, its about the distribution, like D3 getting less than 1% of total prizes. I realize there are reasons for it, but it seems that if your not D1 - Pro then the tournament really isn't designed with you in mind.

I don't recall ever saying give me prizes or I'm not playing,. In fact I do agree with Manike that it might be better if D3 and D2 did not play for prizes at all...

[raehl]

Ahh yes, but calling the D3 entry fee low is a very very relative term is it not? Its far more than I would pay at a local tournament, and the local tournaments I play at have far better prize pools (percentage wise at least) it really doesn't answer the question that was asked. the question is, why should I, as a D3 player, bother to play a NPPL event at all? Isn't all I'm doing is supporting the higher divisions?

And to be a little more informative: (Although I told you why in the first post, but maybe it was too long for you to read)

If you are playing for prize money compared to entry fee, playing NPPL events is stupid and you shouldn't do it.

If you are playing for profit, and you are good enough to win D3 at NPPL, and organized enough to leverage that win into sponsorship, you should play NPPL, as the sponsorship will make up the difference.

If you are playing for fun, you have to decide whether the extra money you pay to lose at a NPPL event is worth losing on Huntington Beach as opposed to losing (or even winning) at Joe Blow's Paintball Hole, only 14 miles off the interstate.


I'm not trying to say NPPL is right for everybody. But it's right for enough people that the answer to the people it's not right for is "Do something else".

Just because it doesn't meet YOUR needs doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it.

[raehl]

Someday I'll learn to read closer. You have a reasonable argument, one I disagree with. As was pointed out, things like major league baseball are not supported by the players of the lower divisions, nor auto racing (even in its infancy before it "grew"), nor most any other sport. In essence what is happening, it seems to me, is the large tournament series are supporting themselves on the entrance fees of the lower divisions, letting the pro teams get near 100% payback (or even say 80%). These leagues almost seem to exist to serve the pro players... I don't know..

You know what all of those other sports have in common? They Pro leagues pay *ZERO* money out to non-Pro teams.

In paintball, the sport is young enough that the non-pros can still play alongside the pros, if they are willing to pay for it. If they are not willing to pay for it, there is no reason for them to be there.

As paintball gets more mature, there won't be a D2 and D3 - it'll be more profitable to turn those other fields into stands for spectators, and then the D2 and D3 teams can go to the events by buying a ticket, just like those other sports you mention.

That D2/D3 is allowed to play at all is a gift. Cherish it while it lasts. Expecting prizes for the privilege is ridiculous.

- Chris

[Lohman446]

Actually I did entirely miss your first post, not on an attempt not to read first posts but on scrolling upward from the bottom to your short answer and then not looking imagine my thoughts when you said "perhaps it was too long to read" and I thought, it was like three or four sentences.

I disagree on some base, such as Dynasty spending more than they make. Perhaps if you compare outlay to only prize money, but lets be serious, I would expect the majority of there costs to be sponsor handled. The same goes for most of the pro division.

I don't like the simple answer of don't like how it is don't play. Or start your own league. Your right in that it is all the power any individual player has. I still don't think it wrong to question it.

Have I made errors in questioning it? Yeh. Did I present a few things that were worded poorly? Oh yes. I still think it perfectly acceptable to question what the return on an investment into NPPL is.

As to auto racing not paying to non pros? Come now, theres prize packages. Baseball / football /etc. Nope, but I don't recall seeing $800 / event entrance fees either.

[hitech]

If you are playing for profit, and you are good enough to win D3 at NPPL, and organized enough to leverage that win into sponsorship, you should play NPPL, as the sponsorship will make up the difference.

Well what do you know, an actual reason! There you go.

I think most people are better off in local tournaments, but at least Chris has an actual reason to play NPPL lower divisions.



P.S. Glad to see you posting again...

[raehl]

I think most people are better off in local tournaments, but at least Chris has an actual reason to play NPPL lower divisions.

I a purely profit sense, as in money in vs. money out. there is no doubt that almost everyone is better off at local tournaments.

But last I checked, none of those people did paintball as a job. Most of usp lay paintball for fun. Playing a NPPL event can be a LOT of fun, if it's the kind of thing that you find to be fun, and for a lot of people that amount of fun is worth the price.

If you're going to NPPL to have a good time, and you're having a good time, then who cares if the prizes suck? The prizes suck for pretty much everything most of us do, except for work.

If you're going to NPPL to make money, and you're playing D3, then you're just being unrealistic. D3 isn't profitable and isn't supposed to be. We'd all LIKE to make money at paintball, but if you want to do it playing you gotta be a Pro. It's not a handout.

- Chris

[ThePixelGuru]

raehl, true. At UMass we play the collegiate tournies because when we say we're ranked #19th in the nation for college paintball and we've been playing tournies only a little over a year, they give us money to keep playing and get the UMass name out there. Prizes won't help us play paintball.

EDIT: They don't hurt, though...

[Lohman446]

Raehl, I'm going to give you one... but not everything.

The only thing I have ever played large events for is fun, frankly I have never been on a team serious enough to win. The bad news is now the team I am on has this honest lets push to be better philosophy, and it kinda kills the fun of paintball for me.

The idea that getting to play D3 on a national level is a privledge and I should be thankful. Maybe, but its a privledge I pay a lot of money to have. As you have stated its not like these events are wildly profitable (though I am beginning to wonder just how profitable they are and if the "we barely made any money" is accurate). They really can't afford to shut out the lower divisions at this time. I would like to think that they have more than just the pro players and promoters in mind (considering how much others help support) and are about players and paintball in general, not just a select group. In my own business I would like to cull out many and keep only my top 10% of customers that are the best to deal with... guess what, its not going to happen. I think the NPPL needs the lower divisions, not just in entrance fee but in the foot traffic past the vendors and sponsor logos they offer.

My feeling on "pro" paintball. I love paintball, but I find it incredibly boring to watch in any of the systems of play we have now. I don't particularly like the attitude of the few pro players I have witnessed at these events, though there are notable stand outs. No, I don't bother to care who is who either. Frankly, I have no need to support pro paintball, if thats all the NPPL is about then I have an issue. If it is about the promotion of paintball as a whole, on all levels, well I can support it.

Does my opinion in the end matter? No more than yours :), all things considered probably less. I'm not going to quit my job and pursue the headaches of starting a league (even if I could), nor am I ever going to play at the highest level. In the end though I like the discussion, and see only good things coming from any open and honest discussion.

So, well there is the valid point that NPPL "needs" the top levels, I think there is an equally valid point on the other side that it needs the lower levels as well. As discussed, how empty would any major event be if it where just pros and paying spectators? Like it or not those lower division players milling around, buying from the vendors, etc are an important part of the equation.

[Blazestorm]

So... I ask you, what does supporting the NPPL as a D2 or D3 level player give you? What is the advantage to you of doing it? You would see better payback percentages at many of the local levels.

You have to start somewhere. Are you expecting to go Pro in your first season of tournaments? No. So you suck it up and pay the costs.

If you wanted to make money, you play local events (Which we do, to help pay for national stuff). But you have to realize if you have a goal in paintball then the cost of an event doesn't matter. But if you just want to sit around and worry about the percentages and the reasons why people do it. It's to do something with their time spent playing paintball. It's worth it to go to those events and play, the experience alone draws most people back.

I dunno, I only dropped $300 on my last event thanks to sponsors...

[SlartyBartFast]

So because they LET you play, even though you can't beat them, they're supposed to give you their prize money too?

[raehl]

Call me crazy, but I thought we were having paintball TOURNAMENTS. You know, TOURNAMENTS, where you get prizes for BEING THE BEST. You seem to be suggestion that you should get prizes because you paid an entry fee. So what? Everybody paid an entry fee. If we're just giving out prizes based on entry fees, let's give every team their own division, charge them $12500 to play, and they can all win $10,000 first place. That'll be a great tournament.

Tell me this: What does a 1st D3 team do that makes them worthy of prizes that a middle-of-the-pack D2 team isn't? The only difference is the D3 team decided to pay a smaller entry fee to play weaker opponents. Giving out prizes for that is stupid. This aini't kindergarten, you don't get money just for playing.

You are playing National level tournaments. If you want big prizes at national level tournaments, you better play the big teams like Dynasty. If Dynasty is going to kill you because you have 1% of the talent they do, then you shouldn't be surprised when you get 1% of the prizes. They are better than you are, and thus they get the prize money.

The league did not create D3 so that teams that sucked could win Pro prizes. It's not part of the deal and never will be. It was created so you could play the events without having to get killed by Dynasty. You can play other D3 teams, or you can play for big prizes, but you can't play D3 for big prizes.

- Chris

[SlartyBartFast]

Call me crazy, but I thought we were having paintball TOURNAMENTS. You know, TOURNAMENTS, where you get prizes for BEING THE BEST.

IMO, prizes need not be money. That's not my argument. But a tournament (or any event for that matter should be run for all the participants involved.

If you're going to be condecending towards lower divisions, if you're going to simply treat them as cows to be milked, and expect them to be thankful that they're getting anything at all in return, why should they show up?

Are teams in it for the money? Well, according to you NOBODY makes their money back. So, how does a big cash prize eqaute with being "the best"?

D2 and D3 teams, were they intelligent, would break away from the D1 tournaments and run their own division. Then, the "pros" can burn sponsorship money and not rely on the little guys to lower their costs and support their payouts.

Event organisers and palyers alike both complain about the expense of events. Yet, for most events, if you took the prize purse for all divisions, the give-away paint, and all the other squandered goodies that the "best" feel the rest of the participants owe them, you'd drastically reduce the cost of the event for the organisers and the participants.

If the cash prizes disappeared, IMO, the attitudes would probably clear up and there would be a TV ready product.

Since the beginning, tournament paintball has refused to focus on growth and development and instead wanted to jump straight to "professional" status and TV contracts.

By comparison, look at how many qualifying leagues, lower divisions, and amateur aorganisations there are between an aspiring athlete/participant with a dream and a paid proffesional in most real proffesional sports.

[tyrion2323]

Chris,

I have always been a supporter of you (on a personal and business level), and I appreciate that you have an insight into this scene that the rest of us lack. But you're way off base when you start to boast that it's the D2/D3 players who should be thankful that they are even given a division to play in at national tournaments. That's arrogant crap.

Others have said it before, but I'll reiterate it. These 'favors' that you're giving the little guys - we both know that you couldn't even host a tournament without D2 and D3 teams. So go ahead and host a pro/D1 only tournament. That will be fun to watch after reading your comments.

I agree that playing NPPL or PSP or anything like that in order to make money is a stupid idea. It's obvious that even if you win D3 or D2, you're not going to cover your costs. But getting rid of prizes altogether? C'mon. It's a national tournament. You can do better than that. What about securing a deal with various sponsors? D3 and D2 could take home new guns, new outfits, custom made gear bags - lots of things that can be useful to a paintball team.

We both know that it takes more than willpower to suddenly become a D1 and Pro team. These teams are given so much equipment and monetary compensation that they are able to perpetuate their positions on top by simply having the resources to play and practice at such a competitive level. It's not like anyone with a marker and a dream can just join up with Dynasty.

It costs the lower-division teams lots of hardwork, money and time in order to come play at your events. Show them the respect that they deserve, and stop acting like they barely matter. Lohman wasn't asking to win big prizes. But there's a difference between explaining why lower level teams who "suck" (your words) don't get huge prizes and then completely knocking them around.