is ULT slow?? i dont think so :) VID inside !!

[Lohman446]

I always assumed the purpose of the videos to demonstrate the speed of the valve and the trigger issues (finger pulling, whatever) were never an issue. Is the purpose of the videos to demonstrate the possible speeds of the valve, or to demonstrate finger speed? I always took them as a demonstration of the valve, done for demonstration purposes. I never even considered discussing the trigger or legality aspects of them.

[Z-man]

And why are you trying to add hostility where none exists?

No hostility intended Fireblade, you remember me right? I get very excited about this, but I am not mad at you and this is not some attack on you. I just... I just...just... [b]I KNOW IM RIGHT AND I MUST PROVE IT!! MUST DO YOU HEAR???!!? MUUUUUST!!!!.

I would not even THINK of suggesting that the RT trigger and its return bounce, even when not enough to rapid-fire, does not help you squeeze out a little extra bps. I think it's going to be very hard for me to pull that AIR valve 12bps+ (much less 15) but I'm going to try it never the less.

But see then you get into interesting questions. See tourneys outlaw the bounce right? sure but you CAN get the input pressure setup on a stock RT valve where you can't make it rapid-fire but you still feel the bounce. So is that still unfair and giving you an advantage?

Lets consider other triggers. Consider an old 98 mech cocker. The trigger pull length is MUCH longer than an RT trigger pull (not to mention that it is a completely different feel). Does that mean that because the cocker has a longer pull that the RT is yet another "assistive" aspect to it and thus is again not really a true semi auto?

Seems to me that (as an extreme example) that if you have a millimeter trigger to pull and a trigger with a 1 foot pull, the millimeter trigger is going to win out in how fast a human can pull it. Likewise single vs. double triggers have similar discrepancies, particularly for the mechanical markers. A 2 finger/blade trigger allows not only for greater leverage but also the use of a second finger. How is that fair?

So this begs the questions of what is the elusive, impartial, honest to goodness, unbiased trigger pull (if you can even suggest such a thing). Every trigger I can think of has something that gives it an advantage or disadvantage in comparison to another. Are we looking for the maximum rate of fire is with 1 finger? 2? 3? does it matter?

In my mind the closest thing to a human's max potential is one where the trigger distance and weight is minimal zed and the movement of the fingers becomes the limiting factor. Adding trigger weight, pull length, ANYTHING like that simply inhibits the max ROF.

So (while I drive up north again and will be away from the computer for 5 hours ) give me your thoughts on that. I personally would be more impressed to see someone pull an old mech Spyder 15bps or an old Mech Cocker 15bps than an RT Pro or even a Classic Mag... but what kind of mech trigger is the unbiased kind? The stock one with the longest pull or the aftermarket one that modifies it?

[Z-man]

I always assumed the purpose of the videos to demonstrate the speed of the valve and the trigger issues (finger pulling, whatever) were never an issue. Is the purpose of the videos to demonstrate the possible speeds of the valve, or to demonstrate finger speed? I always took them as a demonstration of the valve, done for demonstration purposes. I never even considered discussing the trigger or legality aspects of them.

In all honesty... I'm not sure. I usually make a video when i am sick of hearing people talk about something they have NO clue about as gospel truth.

"Mags are slow and paintblenders" was what irritated me enough to start making speed testing videos. Ya! you all shut up then DIDN'T YOU?! YOU STUPID IGNORANT PUNKS! NOTHING TO SAY NOW!! (pbn)

Then you start hearing "oh ok with rapid-fire you can shoot a mag ok but without that all you will ever get is 10bps" I find it so satisfying to absolutely demolish ignorance like that. Now I know this is not Fireblade's contention and I know that it's largely the kids who simply regurgitate what their pro tourney player god knows, but all the same look what happens when you toss some irrefutable proof out there? Ya it gets REEEAAAAAAALLY quiet on those subject.

[RRfireblade]

So (while I drive up north again and will be away from the computer for 5 hours ) give me your thoughts on that. I personally would be more impressed to see someone pull an old mech Spyder 15bps or an old Mech Cocker 15bps than an RT Pro or even a Classic Mag... but what kind of mech trigger is the unbiased kind? The stock one with the longest pull or the aftermarket one that modifies it?

Mmm...I don't know. :)

I suppose in this disccusion , any trigger whose return force doesn't equal or exceed it's pull force and also , for the sake of this discussion I guess we're talking about mechanical markers.

I understand your point though and that's precisely why these discussions are so difficult to nail down.

I 'suppose' the best way may be to take what would be considered stock RT valve and shoot it to max ROF (using your normal rapid fire technique) and then perhaps putting a longer on/off pin to neutralize the RT effect and trying it again, see what the diff is there.

I'm not sure

(oh , and Zach you know we're always cool. We go back way to far for that )

[Beemer]

So this begs the questions of what is the elusive, impartial, honest to goodness, unbiased trigger pull (if you can even suggest such a thing). Every trigger I can think of has something that gives it an advantage or disadvantage in comparison to another.