Was Anything WRONG with twist-lock?

[Jaan]

the only twist lock problem I have is when you have a stock minimag and you take the barell off and a hopper full of paintballs come out. that sucks.

Turn the powerfeed plug 180 degrees, and that shuts the powerfeed "off".

[Pneumagger]

I never had a problem with detents. All of my mag barrels had the dual detents and I never got rollouts. Plus there's the plastic detents. Also, just simply turn the powerfeed plug to stop the flow of paint when you remove the barrel.

[Doc Nickel]

Pros: Fast. One of the quickest to remove barrels ever, second only to the old pump Bushmaster and Mega-Z pin-latch.

Also, the breech was in the barrel, so squeegeeing cleaned everything (except the body of the bolt.) Pull a 'Cocker barrel (or Intimidator, etc.) to squeege, and there'll still be spooge in the breech.

Unfortunately, that's about it.

Cons: The speed of removing the barrel was mitigated somewhat by the requirement the gun had to be held upside down (standard feed) or the power feed knob turned and the ball in the chamber fired clear first. Then, inevitably, you'd go back to shooting only to "dry fire" a couple of times before turning the PF knob back "on".

Next, the design was inherently sloppy. As in loose, the barrel could wobble in relation to the gun, and often did/does when fired. That doesn't help accuracy.

Third, if a barrel has worn a bit, it's all too easy to have the barrel locking pin "skip over" and lock into a barrel O-ring groove or detent slot. This is usually irretrievably fatal, requiring you to degas the gun and break out the tools to fix it. It's happened to me, it's hapopened to lots of you, I'm sure. If you've ever seen any of the old ESPN special event from back in '96 (the goofy sorta-speedball and set so players couldn't pass certain parts of the field before a set time) there's one game (with the All-A's?) where a player did just that. You see him trying to wrench the barrel free for about ten minutes. (Games were designed to last between seven and ten minutes each, so they'd have three per half-hour show plus commercial breaks.)

The original wire detents also tended to wear at the peak- let that go too long and the short end broke off, leaving a sharp stub. This stub both scratched the hell out of your bolt, but also would break every subsequent ball fired. Again, this was a fatal event- unless you happened to have brought a new nubbin out onto the field with you- and had time to change it- you were dinked for the rest of that game.

And last, the barrels were more difficult to machine. A 'Cocker barrel could be done on a relatively simple lathe (CNC or otherwise) or even older "screw machine" type setups. 'Mag twist locks, on the other hand, required milling- in a CNC production environment, that meant extra tooling, more complex machines, and slower production times.

It was pretty common for a barrel to cost, say, $90 for a 'Cocker (or any other threaded barrel) but $110 for a 'Mag.

It was a great idea for it's time, and remember, it came out long before there was a "standard" barrel thread. Heck, it came out at a time when "removable barrels", period, was a major selling point. Most Nelson pumps up to that time (the dominant marker for years) plus all the Sheridans, plus the SMG line, all had fixed barrels.

Every removable-barrel gun had it's own thread- Illustrator, VM, 'Mag, 'Cocker, Bushmaster. That was pretty much it. Simply put, the 'Cocker was one of the two most popular ('Mag and 'Cocker) for mnay years (pretty much '90 through about '96 or '97 when the Electros showed up) and of the two, it was by far easier to make barrels for the 'Cocker than it was the 'Mag, so later designs started using it.

And, of course, the more guns that used it, the wider the selection of available barrels, so therefore the more likely any new gun was going to be made with that thread as standard.

Doc.

[AGD]

Doc everything you said was true but give us some points for evolution.

The plastic nubbins made the world of difference and had MUCH fewer problems.

We redesigned the springs in the detents so they would go to full collapse and stop the pin before it had a chance to retract far enough to roll out of the groove.

We machined the inside of the bodies to give better tollerance for oring crush eliminating most of the slop.

Any barrel movement happened AFTER the ball left the barrel and was not a factor in accuracy as everyone believed but hey you can't change what people think.

Now just to spark up the conversation....

Not turning on your hopper causes more missed shots than a rotated power feed plug.

Ball detents REMAIN a pain in the neck.

Current guns have no way to dry fire them with the balls loaded unless you shoot out the stack.

Current guns can not show you if you have a ball in the breach (well thats a power feed issue but what the heck )

AGD

[Doc Nickel]

No offense intended Tom.

Keep in mind I bought my one and only new MiniMag back in '95 or '96, went to a 'Cocker in '96 or '97 (hey, I'm a gadget freak- plus the 'Cocker had more extraneous metal to mill off) the 'Mag was disassembled in the middle of a centerfeed mod by late '98, and I ignored it 'til about '02 or '03 when I used it to design my barrel adapter.

'Course, I was still modding and repairing others over that period, but the gist is, I had pretty much stopped using 'em by '98 or so. So my data points basically just apply to the older versions.

Now, on a couple of those points:
The O-ring grooves never seemed to be a problem in stock barrels- but there was wide variation in aftermarkets. My early first-run DYE stainless ($125 barrel at the time, back when I thought expensive barrels would be more accurate) was sloppy as hell. You could watch the muzzle wobble a full 1/8" each time the gun fired. Reminded me of a "Loony Tunes", you know, where the barrel would "whip" and sling the cannonball out?

My stock MiniMag barrel, besides being pretty much as accurate as the DYE, fit perfectly, with nearly no slop. (Weight and length had a little to do with that, but not all.)

The plastic nubbins did indeed improve that department- but that was right about the time the ULE/Sluggo bodies, X-Mags, and my adapters came out, so they didn't get the mileage they should have. Plus, the aftermarket strikes again- I've run across more than a few barrels that the molded plastic nubbins don't fit. Some just need a little trimming, some are "no way 'Jose". J&J brass barrels, since their grooves were usually cut on manual machines, have been some of the worst. My BOA isn't bad, but it's still not right. I had a DYE BoomSchitck that wouldn't work, etc. and so on.

I disagree that the barrel movement happened after the ball left-it seems to me it's the bolt that does it (since the barrel waggles even when dry-firing) so if that's the case, it's going to start to move when the bolt does, and of course that means long before the ball has left (at least anything longer than a MiniMag barrel.)

I may be wrong on that, since I'm watching but noit necessarily timing anything.

Your last two point, while valid, are admittedly minor. The need to dry-fire, but no shoot paint, while the gun is loaded, is a fairly rare need. I can only think of one or two situations, like wanting to "make firing noises" but to not shoot, to save your last little bit of paint.

Not being able to see into the breech is kind of irrelevant, since very few guns had that feature before the PF 'Mag- maybe a PGP or other top-tube Sheridan. No Nelson let you see into the breech, the Sniper/Cocker didn't (we drilled holes in the old PVC elbows to see if there was paint in the tube, though) the VM and Illustrator didn't, Glenn's Typhoons and Strokers didn't... Okay, the 68 Special did- heck, you could touch and poke the ball and stroke it and call it George if you wanted. That sucker was almost falling out of the breech and onto your shoes.

Doc.

[AGD]

Good points Doc! Always fun to debate someone with a real brain.

Thanks

AGD

[PumpPlayer]

Not to jump between the bear and the lion here but...


I love my powerfeeds. "Back in the day" (which for me was '97/'98), I turned the powerfeed "off" during a game many times and fired blanks to fool opponents. Rummage around with your pack for a bit while being way too obvious about things and see if they try to make a move. It was great when it worked.

I also like PF because it gives you an additional "safety" in addition to a trigger safety and a BBD without having to degas. Lastly, I still like a motorized gravity-feed hopper on most markers and they don't work so well with vertical feeds where the stack is too short. Powerfeed, on the other hand, works wonderfully. The only downside to powerfeed that I can see is that it doesn't work so famously with a force-feed hopper.

As far as twist-lock goes, I didn't get an AutoMag until well after the 'issues' had been resolved, according to the above chronology. I bought my first classic 'mag in early '98 and it shot fantastic right out of the box. It still shoots great years later. Twist-lock has never been an issue for me except for the fact that it's getting hard to find good barrels now that most everyone has discontinued production.


I don't think any barrel system is really perfect. Many times I've been sitting behind a bunker taking turn after turn to remove/replace a 'cocker barrel thinking, "I wish I had my 'mag right now." and many more times where I've wished for threads. Gear mishaps are part of the game and if you don't learn to laugh at them, you're just going to drive yourself crazy.

[Tool-of-death]

autococker are slowly but surely becoming the industry standard threads on barrels. why people chose AC I don't know but we have no choice but to roll with it.

I like the twist lock idea but it just seems a bit pointless. kinda like the closed bolt thing.

[Doc Nickel]

autococker are slowly but surely becoming the industry standard threads on barrels. why people chose AC I don't know but we have no choice but to roll with it.

-I already told you: For at least five or six years, the 'Mag and the 'Cocker were the top two most popular semiautos, and by a long stretch.

Well, I should say that Tippmann probably sold more Pro-Ams and Pro-Lites in that period, but as far as the current argument goes, while relatively few Tippy owners swapped barrels back then, most 'Cocker and Sniper owners swapped or wanted to swap.

Both the 'Mag and 'Cocker came out somewhere around '90, give or take a year or so. The Angel hit the streets around '96, lighting off the wave of electros. But in between that time, from around '90 to well into '97 or '98, the 'Cocker was pretty much the most popular tourney marker out there.

There wasn't much choice in those days. Nobody had yet hit on the "gun of the week" system they have now ("It's the same gun, but this one's green!") and the electro wave hadn't hit yet. You could choose from a 'Mag, 'Cocker, VM-68, Illustrator, Icon-Z/Mega-Z and a couple of others I'm sure I'm forgetting. The Spyder first appeared in '95 and didn't really start to catch on 'til around '97.

A few of the time were abject failures (Brass Eagle's Poison) or considered too "cheap" for anyone but a total noob to use (Brass Eagle's Stingray.)

So, long story short- for at least five years, arguably closer to eight, the 'Cocker was pretty much top dog. I know that's hard for you kids to grasp, since you've been trained by WDP and Smart Parts to think that last years' marker is junk and embarrasing to be seen on the field with (but hey, this new one has tint control, and Chris LaSoya personally drove by the factory as it was being made! Only another $1,250!)

And as I said in a previous post, of the two top markers of that period ('Mag and 'Cocker) barrels for the 'Cocker were easier, cheaper and faster to make, since they required simpler machining. Besides the obvious fact that a marker would have to be designed around the twist-lock; think of a 'Cocker with a huge upper receiver, big enough to try and fit the entire 1" diameter 'Mag barrel, and not just the reduced-diameter threaded part.

So the 'Cocker got most of the aftermarket attention. The 'Cocker was the top dog, so if a company made barrels, they made them for the 'Cocker.

And THAT, of course, leads to other manufacturers using the same thread when they release a new gun, because after a while, to convince buyers to try out a brand-new gun (like the Tribal) a big selling point is that the gun will take existing aftermarket accessories- especially parts that a buyer is likely to already have, like barrels.

It wasn't "chosen" deliberately, and it didn't "win" because it was "superior to all other methods", it gained acceptance by being good enough and on a popular gun at the time.

Doc.

[Gatorade]

The point about cocker barrels being a pain in the kiester to remove is well taken though - one of the things that I liked about my Shocker when I had it was that the barrel came off quickly. Of course, the darn thing broke enough paint that I had to take the barrel off more often than any of my cocker-threaded guns (I've had at least a dozen), but it was at least easier.

[buzzboy]

Were the double nubbin T/L's custom mill or could you get them from the factory.

So, long story short- for at least five years, arguably closer to eight, the 'Cocker was pretty much top dog. I know that's hard for you kids to grasp, since you've been trained by WDP and Smart Parts to think that last years' marker is junk and embarrasing to be seen on the field with (but hey, this new one has tint control, and Chris LaSoya personally drove by the factory as it was being made! Only another $1,250!)

Was that an obscure quote of a Bloom County or am I just digging too deeply.

EDITIdn't mean to cross reference there. Meant to say digging. Not a clue what diffing is even.

[CRySyS]

Diffing? Haha, UNIX nerd!

Wait, I recognized it...


But back to the topic, sort of. An old trick to make your cocker quick strip was to partition the threads into slices like a pie and cut half the slices out. Repeat on the threads in the breech. Now you can slide the barrel all the way in and twist a quarter turn or so to tighten it.

This of course had to be done just right on each gun and barrel individually or you might get a combo that slips before it tightens all the way. But there was an autococker answer to the twist lock as far back as the late '90's

[TheAngryDrunkenRussian]

I got to throw this out there Doc's mention of slop in the barrel. I to have a 14" DYE stainless a 12" all american and a stock (what is it 2'') AGD barrel and I to have a lot of play with the stainless, I was leaning towards that the material had alot to do with it along with the length as well.

14" stainless was sloppy, the 12" all american was alot better then the stainless, but that little stock barrel was tighter then you know what plus it was a lot better when you up close and personal.

BTW I still use the wire nubbins and I really don't have a problem with them. I personally thought that AGD switch because it was cheaper to produce

[master_alexander]

not reading all, probably been stated before...

-heavy
-nubbins
-orings
-manufacturing process

[Doc Nickel]

Was that an obscure quote of a Bloom County or am I just digging too deeply.

-That's precisely what it was. Remember, Oliver threw away his entire computer setup when the new version was announced- "Now with Tint Control!"

And that fits in perfectly with the current paintball marketing; New Angel A4? Last week's crap. Now we have the a4 Fly.

I've seen two-year-old Intimidators sell for $300, in pretty cherry shape, basically just because "nobody uses a GZ anymore. The new ones are better". When in fact the only substantial difference is the milling (internals are identical) and possibly a new mode or two on the board (a new mode that most fields won't allow you to use, but the players use anyway, insisting, no, it's not a "cheat mode", I really can pull this trigger 27 times a second.)

An LED Angel, with a replacement board like a Morlock, can do 20 BPS, but nobody wants 'em because they're "too slow" and "too old".

You guys have been marketed to since the first day you played, and you've become so adjusted to it you expect it.

But back to the topic, sort of. An old trick to make your cocker quick strip was to partition the threads into slices like a pie and cut half the slices out. Repeat on the threads in the breech. Now you can slide the barrel all the way in and twist a quarter turn or so to tighten it.

-An "old trick" my hairy hindquarters. Old idea, maybe... The concept is sound- the Germans used that "interrupted thread" as a locking mechanism for certain tank and artillery guns- but I'd bet a month's paycheck nobody's successfully modded a 'Cocker that way.

In fact, I'd pay good money to see the results if anyone has used it on any paintball gun.

Doc.